>>> 4sep02 #9154-11297 +++ #10886 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Engine/Prop/Instrument Financing? Figured I'd start by asking y'all... Has anybody secured (or attempted to) financing for the expensive stuff (engine, prop, instruments)? One time I talked to someone at a fly-in that financed kits, and was told that I could get such financing once I could show them a picture of the airplane to prove there was something to put the engine on. Of course, I don't remember who that was... Any idea of who to contact? +++ #10893 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Engine/Prop/Instrument Financing? This has been a topic on the BD4 group. Several have been able to find financing (and insurance) for major portions of their project through AOPA. (They have also found insurance providing higher and more comprehensive coverage than from anything offered through EAA or the Avemco partnership.) +++ #10894 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Engine/Prop/Instrument Financing? I meant to include in that "for less money." +++ #10968 From: "Tex and Pat Goerger" Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber > You are setting up your Bearhawk for serious bush work. Would you > take a serious rifle/pistol combination for rodent defense or > something lighter that would always be in the plane for survival > purposes? What calibers? I have always carried a Marlin 45/70 with me in bear country working a pack string in the Absaroka Mtns, but the weapon of choice seems to be changing to 12 gauge riot guns with alternating slugs and buckshot. Two years ago a guide in a camp in the next drainage from us dropped a charging grizzly with one. An experience I hope to avoid. +++ #10969 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: OT:Bush Caliber For my flight up the Alcan I'm taking two firearms. A very light, very reliable single-shot 12 gauge shotgun and my trusty Marlin 30/30 10-shot capacity lever action. That covers food and protection well enough for me. The odds of bear attack if we go down are much, much more remote than the possibility I may have to shoot something and exercise my position at the top of the food chain. Should a bear try to have his way with me, I'm banking on the fact I can talk him out of it. If not, I figure I can drop him while he's deciding what he wants to do. A 12 gauge slug up close is tough for most bears to ignore, even the beast who left this marvelous print Del shared with us. As an aside, the 30/30 is a great "sleeper" survival rifle. Doesn't draw nearly the attention as an AK or SKS. +++ #10970 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber > You are setting up your Bearhawk for serious bush work. Would you > take a serious rifle/pistol combination for rodent defense or > something lighter that would always be in the plane for survival > purposes? What calibers? My .450 Marlin, after I have Wild West Guns perform a takedown conversion on it. For small game harvest purposes my Browning Buckmark .22 pistol. The Marlin lever action is relatively light, very compact and will handle just about anything I might run into up here, whether that be Mr. Fuzzy Wuzzy or a Moose. The .22 pistol is plenty accurate for small game even in the hands of an incompetent like me. After my airplane is flying, I'll eventually have a case made that holds both of them and some other survival gear which will attach to the back of the front passenger seat with quick release fasteners. +++ #10971 From: "Javier" supermexgarza@... Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber Can you legally carry a gun crossing the US/Can border? You must check with Canadian authorities on the way don,t you? as of my choice of gun may be a 45 semi auto pistol for up close and personal and a 375 H&H for the rodent that left that print, or any other thing for that matter, and it is OK to shot rabbits with the 375 but you must take a sandwich because you wont be eating rabbit!, i have gone hunting where we did a lot of walking in northern Mexico, area similar to west Texas and carrying a heavy rifle gets old very fast! and that will be some thing to think about, if you go down and have to do some walking a light easy to carry gun with enough stopping power (for the rodent) will be an extremely valuable survival tool +++ #10972 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: OT:Bush Caliber You can legally carry a rifle or shotgun. Carry a pistol and they "carry" it away from you. I believe I'll be paying $50 each for the shotgun and rifle, so they either "carry" cash or pistols from us fine U.S. transition visitors. The plane, passengers and contents all must go through Canadian customs. I've been thinking about what to take along for the trip, and decided I like the two-gun approach. Weight wise it's not really too big an issue, and I like the flexibility I have. I just can't see going without an "all around" rifle like my 30/30. Sure, a bear would swat at it like a mosquito (although up here a mosquito may be more deadly than a 30/30 to a bear). That's where the shotgun comes in. Sure, I'd rather take along the riot gun, but there is a minimum barrel length required in Canada. +++ #10973 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: OT:Bush Caliber > I figure that 'ol 12 gauge would ruin a bear's day more than he'd ruin > mine. If I flinch instead of squeeze on the first shot and can't > reload another slug fast enough for the second shot, I deserve to be > his meal. He earned it, and I imagine he'll find a bit more gristle > than he's used to. Serves him right. Nothing wrong with a slug loaded 12 guage for bear protection. I have a pump 12 gauge which can wear a 20" barrel and a magazine exension, that was my previous bear protection weapon. It doesn't quite have the range or accuracy that my rifle does, however. The .450 gives me something that I can carry year round, not just for bear defense in the summer. When deer season hit I used to be faced with the choice of lugging a heavy magnum rifle up the mountain (in case I ran into a bear) or carrying something more appropriate for Alaska's smallish deer (like your 30-30) that would be less than desirable in case of bear. Basically I now have the functionality of a slug loaded 12 guage and your 30-30 all rolled into one lightweight, easy handling package. Sure, I can't shoot shotshells with it, but that isn't a big concern for me. As long as I have the .22 pistol on my hip I can still take care of small game should the opportunity arise. The problem with 2 long guns, is you'll invariably be carrying the wrong one that you need, and lugging 2 around isn't any fun. That is why I don't hunt small game with my .22 rifle anymore after the moose incident. +++ #10974 From: "AlaskaFlyBoY" "Tom Rawlins" Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber I agree with my brother, the Marlin is really the way to go up in Alaska. They are really selling like hot cakes, and I myself want one for throwing in the back of the Citabria for bush excursions. Wild West has done a really good job on Del's .450, but WWG also makes a .50 Alaskan based on the Marlin. I am saving up for that in the stainless steel takedown model. Sure, it costs over a cool grand, but it will stop anything on four legs that walks the bush. While I also own a shotgun with a slug barrel, I would take that lever action .450 over it any day. When it comes to protecting yourself and your family I just don't see any reason to compromise. +++ #10975 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber > Wild West has done a really good job on Del's .450, but WWG also makes > a .50 Alaskan based on the Marlin. I am saving up for that in the > stainless steel takedown model. Sure, it costs over a cool grand, but > it will stop anything on four legs that walks the bush. Actually their "Co-Pilot" is closer to 2 grand, and that is just for the "plain" parkerized version with a wood stock. The major thing that they did to mine, was replace the factory lever with one that has a bigger loop, which is nice for gloves, and doesn't beat your knuckles under recoil (I have large hands). They also did a trigger job, installed better sights and a decelerator recoil pad. Nothing too fancy compared to some of the mods they can do, but the combined effect made it a lot more pleasant to shoot. I'll eventually get the takedown conversion done, but right now its kind of hard to justify the cost with my airplane consisting of a crate of wing ribs and some other miscellaneous parts. Before you look at this link, be sure to cover your keyboard up so you don't get drool all over it: http://www.wildwestguns.com/ +++ #10976 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber > I have always carried a Marlin 45/70 with me in bear country working a > pack string in the Absaroka Mtns, but the weapon of choice seems to be > changing to 12 gauge riot guns with alternating slugs and buckshot. > Two years ago a guide in a camp in the next drainage from us dropped a > charging grizzly with one. An experience I hope to avoid. I would stick to slugs only. Buckshot probably wouldn't do much besides pissing the bear off even more. To stop a dangerous (one that is close enough to hurt you) bear you need to take out the central nervous system, which may mean penetrating through some heavy bone unless you are fortunate enough to shoot it through the mouth or something. I have no doubt that buckshot can inflict a fatal wound, but loss of blood is not fast enough. Plenty of bears have hung on long enough to seriously maul or kill their victim, before wandering off to die themselves. +++ #10977 From: "kgward2000" "ken" Subject: bush caliber The best caliber for survival in northern canada is large modified macintosh apples. You take and core out the centers and fill them with cayan pepper. When a bear approaches you roll an apple or two his way, he will take the apple over a smelly old bush pilot every time. The reaction is every bit as fast and severe as any .450 marlin. It is adviseable to not stand anywhere near the rear of the bear as they quite often do not have a copy of kitplanes readily available. Upon departure the bear leaves a clear indication as to his direction of travel so you can choose an alternate route. The apples can also be used as an emergency food source as bush pilot stomachs are well conditioned to this type of food.I know this works on black bears, it took 2 days to clean up our tent as we did not have it aligned correctlly, so i am assuming this system will work as effectivelly on all bears. If any of you alaska pilots have a chance to test this system out on grizz could please let the goupe know (1)- was the effect immediate or is there a time delay with grizzley. (2)- who left the best trail - the grizz or the pilot. +++ #10976 From: "Tex and Pat Goerger" Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber One must remember that here in the lower 48 shooting a grizzly is strictly a last resort and he is going to be at very close range. The bear I mentioned was hit with all nine OO buck pellets since he was about 50 feet from the shooter and coming straight at him. That's akin to being hit with nine 30-30's at one time . J.E.D. Smith or Kit Carson would have thought that was really big medicine. The charge of the bear will seem insignificant compared to the charge of the Government people and the bureaucrats afterwards. Personally I will stick to my 45-70 with the old Elmer Keith load of 52 grains of 3031 behind a 405 grain bullet. It has dropped moose and goat in Alaska with one shot like they were hit in the head with sledge hammer +++ #10987 From: Drew Schumann Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber I haven't had time to read the rest of the posts, but for the biggest bang for the buck and size, I'd take a double barrelled 12 gauge, saw it down to the legal limit, mount a "ghost ring" on the receiver and a big front sight. That way I could keep it loaded with slugs, but could carry around bird shot for survival shooting. I had the opportunity to shoot this get up in Montana, once, and it was slicker than snot. The only drawback is your relatively slow reload time. I don't think range is an issue; you could hit what you wanted from 75 yards out. That's where you need to hit, and the second shot is right there, real fast. Second choice would be a pump 12 gauge, Third choice would be one of the excellent guide guns out there. +++ #10990 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber > Personally I will stick to my 45-70 with the old Elmer Keith load of > 52 grains of 3031 behind a 405 grain bullet. It has dropped moose and > goat in Alaska with one shot like they were hit in the head with > sledge hammer That is the nice thing about the 45-70. Even the "weak" blackpowder equivalent loads have been doing the job for over a hundred years. With the modern rifles, we have a lot of extra power available to us but the original loadings are certainly capable. Another point in its favor, is in a survival situation you can fire a .410 shotshell in a 45-70. That is about the only real advantage it has over the same rifle in 450 marlin (like mine). I still like having the .22 pistol in my survival gear however since I can carry a lot of ammo for it in a small space, and keep a full power load chambered in my rifle in case I bump into something bigger. I would really like to see a lightweight, folding over/under rifle in .45-70 and .22lr. I think it would be an ideal survival weapon and would be cheap enough that it could be left in the airplane full time. No way would I leave a $2000+ co-pilot unattended in my plane. +++ #10993 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: OT:Bush Caliber > Okay, my turn to look ignorant in front of all my friends... > > 1. What is a "slug loaded 12 gauge" (a shotgun shell with one > really big shot ball?) Ignoring the differences between the different types of slug loadings, that is basically accurate. Picture a great big cylindrical hunk of lead flying through the air and you get the idea. Supposedly slugs are supposed to make a lot of recoil but compared to my guide gun I was not impressed. >2. What is a "takedown conversion" A takedown rifle (or shotgun) is simply one that breaks apart in the middle, so that it can be taken down for storage or transport. Wild West Guns here in Anchorage has made a name for themselves by developing a way to convert the Marlin model 1895 lever action rifle into takedown form, which makes it extremely convenient to transport in a small airplane. Basically they cut the rifle in half but add a mechanism by which it can be quickly reassembled and used. This is not a new idea by any stretch; my great grandfather's model 1897 Winchester pump shotgun (manufactured in 1912) had a similar mechanism built in from the factory. +++ #11006 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: Re: OT:Bush Caliber I understand from my son in Montana who does a lot of hunting, a pepper spray (Mace)really works well in stopping both bears and bureaucrats. +++ #11109 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun > How about a Winchester Model '92 in 454 Cassull? > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. > > Light, very short and whippy. Sights were Winchester buckhorn fast. > Probably could use a "ghost" rear apeture. How 'bout that for some > close-range bear work? I have a '92 carbine I rebarrelled something like 35 years ago (I was in college) in 44 Magnum. Even with pistol loads it beats me to death with that little carbine butt plate. Most of the time I shoot .44 Specials in it. No weight, not enough square inches in the butt plate and that's only in 44 mag. A 92 carbine in 454 Casull has to be brutal. It might be better to let the bear eat me. +++ #11112 From: Drew Schumann Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun > Even with pistol loads it beats me to death with that little carbine > butt plate. The Model 92 is a modern LSI (useta be Rossi) reproduction with over FOUR inches of Sorbethane AND a one inch airspace in the butt pad. I imagine it still barks, but probably doesn't punish as bad as what you had. I'd imagine the short length of the butt would also have an effect, as it would be harder to get a real tight stock weld. For those of you interested, the 454 Cassull, out of a 20 inch carbine barrel and 325 grain solids, puts out the same kinetic energy as .45-70 out to 50 yds or so. I'd think that would "put paid" to anything walking the face of the earth with anything like decent shot placement. +++ #11113 From: Bob Romanko Subject: OT: Flare Gun (Was OT: Bush gun) Just talked to an 'ol timer pilot up here in Homer. He claimed his preferred weapon if a bear was charging was would be his flare gun at close range. Ouch! +++ #11118 From: Tony Dean Subject: Bear Repelland: WAS=>> Re: OT: Flare Gun (Was OT: Bush gun) I was over at Rick Henry's web site http://www.experimentalairplane.com/ where he has info about his trip to Alaska earlier this year. He lists his bear repellant as being of the 12 guige variety. He also lists all the equipment packed and gives a journal of the flight in Mustang II. He started in the Memphis TN area and flew to Ankorage. +++ #11121 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun > For those of you interested, the 454 Cassull, out of a 20 inch carbine > barrel and 325 grain solids, puts out the same kinetic energy as > .45-70 out to 50 yds or so. I'm assuming you refer to the standard pressure 45-70 loads from the major manufacturers, that you can buy over the counter at any gunshop. In a modern lever action the 45-70 can be loaded to a much higher pressure, and will easily outdo any .45 caliber handgun round. Personally I would not mess with a pistol cartridge unless it was in a pistol. Even with the longer barrel of a rifle you still have a weaker round and you give up the portability of a pistol. +++ #11122 From: Drew Schumann Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun If I may beg the rest of the lists' pardon, I have some questions for the Alaska bunch. 1. I've narrowed my gun search to the following choices: Marlin "non-guide gun" .45-70 lever action. $350 or so. Baikal double-barrel 20" 12 gauge, $295. Mossberg pump $225-$300. Any others out there that fit the low-budget, bear-capable defense guns? +++ #11125 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 > If I may beg the rest of the lists' pardon, I have some questions for > the Alaska bunch. A point touched on earlier today but I'll expand on it since it's early enough my brain hasn't shown up for work yet. Because of obvious liability questions any ammunition that older weapons are chambered for that is sold over the counter is down loaded for the weakest link in the system. This includes pistol rounds like .44-40 and rifle rounds like the .45-70. This is because there are so many '73 winchesters and their peer group out there in .44-40 and so many older Winchesters/Trapdoor Springfields, etc for the .45-70. These guns were originally designed for black powder so the over-counter rounds are loaded down to that pressure. If you're going to use .45-70 don't buy normal Remington/UMC, etc. rounds. If you don't hand load yourself (and if you do make sure you put a wad over the smokeless load to stop detonation) get some high quality loads from a known reloaded service that can take advantage of your newer weapon. Be advised however: most folks have never fired a bush-capable, carbine sized rifle with a 405 grain (or God help you, the 500 grain) slug backed up with a healthy load of smokless powder. It'll pound you silly. But, if the name of the game is to get a Bear's attention, go for a medium-hot load with a well constructed slug (the debate on solids is for another thread) and just know that in the heat of doing battle with a grizzly, you won't even notice the recoil. The .440 Marlin would be a more modern choice but, as has been proven in thousands of tests and episodes, the final kill on a big animal always seems to come down to bullet weight regardless of the technology behind it. +++ #11126 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun > 1. I've narrowed my gun search to the following choices... It is just a personal preference but I would pay a little more for a Remington 870 pump instead of a Mossberg or the double barrel. Better still, I would opt for the rifle so you can use it hunting (other than birds and small game). +++ #11129 From: Drew Schumann Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 Of course, a 12 gauge can be used for survival shooting as well, and you don't have to worry about what kind of ammo you feed it. 12 ga. is 12 ga. is 12 ga. +++ #11132 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 > If you're going to use .45-70 don't buy normal Remington/UMC, > etc. rounds. I sometimes follow the "marlin talk" forum on Marlin's website, and the 2 ammo loaders that are usually recommended are Buffalo Bore and Garrett. I know you can get at least Buffalo Bore over the counter at gunshops up here. > The .440 Marlin would be a more modern choice but, as has been proven > in thousands of tests and episodes, the final kill on a big animal > always seems to come down to bullet weight regardless of the > technology behind it. The .450 Marlin is for all intents and purposes, the same thing as a 45-70. Loaded to the same pressure, they will fire the same weight bullet at the same speed. The main difference is that the external configuration of the cartridge is such that it won't fit into any other rifle, so the big manufacturers are willing to load ammunition for it. The major disadvantage is that so far, the only loading available is from Hornady, and features a 350 grain jacketed bullet at 2100 fps. I personally feel this is a good compromise between a decent trajectory for hunting, and something that will still dump a bear with authority. But if you can shoot the 400-500 grainers more power to you! +++ #11133 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 > Of course, a 12 gauge can be used for survival shooting as well, and > you don't have to worry about what kind of ammo you feed it. 12 > ga. is 12 ga. is 12 ga. It will all shoot, but you don't want to be loaded with #8 birdshot when what you really wanted was slugs, or vice versa! +++ #11134 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 A problem with a shot gun, even with slugs, is penetration. I don't know the actual weight of a shot gun slug, but even though they are big, they are fairly fragile and a Grizzly isn't. Do they make special penetrator slugs for something as well built as a bear? Each of the balls in double-oh buck shot (there are how many? 6 or 9?) has about the same weight and penetration as a medium load .30 caliber muzzle loader. The shock effect is massive but I'm not convinced of the killing factor unless the bear is really, really close. All shotgun loads, regardless of type lose their energy very quickly (so does a .45-70, but not as fast). I'd think to be sure of maximum effect you'd have to wait until the critter was within 15-25 yards, if that, for maximum effect. That's too damn close I guess maybe pumping a 12 gauge rapidly at close range would do the job if you wait until he's right in your face, but then you have the problem of inertia and die-time. Nothing will drop a bear in its tracks except a well placed, deep penetrating heavy caliber rifle round (06? 300 Win Mag) and that's not likely to happen in a combat situation. He'll keep coming, mangle you and die later. I think it's interesting in this entire thread that no one has mentioned bolt guns or anything considered a real bear caliber like 30-06 or better, 300 Winchester magnum. This must say something about required second shot speed and our predilection for funkier machinery. All of this having been said, I should note that we don't have a lot of bear attacks here in residential Phoenix so my knowledge is entirely theoretical and episodic (plus 50 years of gun toting and a year of running Dillon Precision). +++ #11137 From: Drew Schumann Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 I'd have to echo Del's observation about 12 ga. slug penetration. The old-fashioned slugs penetrate very well. Here in Iowa, it's the only allowable way to hunt deer, and the slug usually goes clear through. I'm interested in evidence to the contrary regarding slugs, but the whole reason I considered them is based on various gun writers who claimed excellent penetration, including one guy who's hunted and killed elephant with a sawed off double 12 ga. with ghost ring sights. +++ #11139 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 > I guess maybe pumping a 12 gauge rapidly at close range would do the > job if you wait until he's right in your face, but then you have the > problem of inertia and die-time. I find that is one thing that a lot of people from the 48 do not quite get at first; that it is not enough to just kill a bear. You need to either brain it or sever its spinal column and that will take a big chunk of lead, and some luck (no matter how good you are). Otherwise it can do plenty of damage before it finally dies of blood loss. > I think it's interesting in this entire thread that no one has > mentioned bolt guns or anything considered a real bear caliber like > 30-06 or better, 300 Winchester magnum. This must say something about > required second shot speed and our predilection for funkier machinery. If you have a 30-06 or better, you don't really need another rifle for bear protection. The principal reason I like my guide gun, other than the bore size, is its portability. I also have a nice 7mm Weatherby Magnum (I am drawn to odd calibers) that belonged to my dad, and I have no doubt whatsoever that loaded with 175 grain partitions or grand slams, it would stop any bear if I did my part. I hunted with it for a couple of years and eventually came to the same conclusion that my dad did, that it is just too big and heavy for general packing around duties unless you expect to need the range and flat trajectory it offers. My Marlin is MUCH smaller and lighter, which means that I will be more likely to have it with me if I need it, and of course there is the option of getting it converted to a take-down rifle. Another thing I like about the Marlin is the open sights (I have wild west sights, the factory rear sight sucks), which are ideal for fast, close shooting. I don't have to worry about a broken scope, or what power it is set to (you don't want it on high power if you have a bear in front of you). You could put open sights on a bolt gun, but it would be kind of stupid to do so since you'd be giving up the long range benefit of having it in the first place. As I've said before, if I were intentionally hunting bear, I would get the biggest long range bolt gun I could handle. >All of this having been said, I should note that we don't have a lot of >bear attacks here in residential Phoenix so my knowledge is entirely >theoretical and episodic (plus 50 years of gun toting and a year of >running Dillon Precision). Well, the only practical difference between you and me, is I am up here and may someday have to test my opinions. So far I have been lucky but I am also very careful. The evening my brother and I saw those tracks, we had about a half dozen salmon to clean, and we canoed to the opposite side of the lake from our camp to do it in, and packed the filets in ziploc bags in a sealed cooler before heading to camp. We put the cooler and the rest of our fishy gear down by the boat, some distance from camp for the night. We set up our tent on a platform that is lashed to some trees, about 15 feet in the air (we've been using the spot for a while). Worst thing that could have happened if a bear got into camp at night is it might have made a mess and broke some stuff. +++ #11140 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 > I'd have to echo Del's observation about 12 ga. slug penetration. The > old-fashioned slugs penetrate very well. Here in Iowa, it's the only > allowable way to hunt deer, and the slug usually goes clear through. I've carried a slug loaded 12 gauge in bear country and would do it again if I didn't have my guide gun, but the only real first hand observation I can make doesn't necessarily say much for the slug gun, although it also doesn't say anything at all about penetration. My pump 12 gauge doesn't seem to weigh a lot more than the Marlin and it doesn't have nearly as nice of a recoil pad as the decelerator I had installed on the 450. But the Marlin is still a lot more painful to shoot (not very scientific, I know). If you ascribe to the notion that every force is opposed by an equal force, there is no way that the 12 gauge is projecting as much power as the rifle. That doesn't mean that it won't penetrate and do the job, however. I'd heard horror stories about the recoil of a slug gun but compared to my 450 or 7mm Weatherby I wasn't impressed. +++ #11142 From: Drew Schumann Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 Wow, this problem actually has aircraft implications! I think the difference you might feel has a lot to do with simple pressure. The recoil of the rifle is developed through a relatively small area, so it puts out a much higher psi. It has less inches to distribute the pounds. The 12 gauge has much more area, relative to the rifle, so you have more inches to distribute the pounds. 12 gauge is .75 inches and .450 is .45 inches, so using Jefro math (carry the one, ought, ought,) you have .44 square inches to distribute the energy in the shotgun barrel, and .16 square inches to distribute the energy in the rifle barrel. Assuming the 12 ga and the .450 generate the same energy, (which I doubt they do) the piston action in the shotgun has three times the area, which lessons the pounds per square inch. This is evident in both forward velocity of the round, and the reactive velocity of the recoil. Or I could be mistaken. +++ #11143 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: .45-70 > I apologize to the rest of the list for boring you with this thread... Don't apologize, its a piece of survival gear that Alaska law requires you to carry on your aircraft and is on topic for this forum. While the forum has so far been all about building Bearhawks, hopefully someday there will be a lot more posts about using them. I know that in my case the survival gun that I choose will dictate certain design features, since I want to have a built in storage location that is just for survival gear. +++ #11146 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: OT: .45-70 > Didn't Alaska drop the mandatory requirement? Or was that Canada? > .....or is it in the "summer". What exactly IS the "summer" anyhow in > the FARs? Ask some up here, and they'll tell you "summer" lasts about > five minutes sometime around the third week of July! (grin) They dropped the requirement for flights that are going in and out of Canada, since Canada's laws put people in the position of choosing which country's laws they wanted to violate. Of course, even though you can now obey the law in both places that doesn't mean you will be any less screwed if you need a firearm and don't have one. That point was hammered home to me yesterday as my Jeep died and coasted to a halt about 120 miles short of Anchorage. I had to go to Whitehorse to rescue a buddy whose motorcycle broke and was on my way home. Now the people whose driveway I coasted into turned out to be friendly and I was able to call for a tow out of there, but there are some really strange people living on and roaming the highways in Alaska. Now I know there are some good Canadians on this forum but until your country changes its laws I am going to avoid it as much as possible. +++ #11148 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: OT: recoil You're right on your math, but a big factor is the burn time of the cartridge. Rifle powder is fast burn, shot gun slow burn. The rifle accelerates the slug much faster and the shotgun sort of "punts" the load out. F=MV (squared). Higher muzzle velocity means much faster acceleration which forces the gun back just that much more. That's why a rifle has a crack to it and a shotgun doesn't. That's why a rifle nails your shoulder and a shotgun "pushes" it. +++ #11149 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: OT: iron sights > You are describing quite well, the "ghost-ring" style sight I am very > fond of. Bingo. When I said "open sights" I really meant iron sights. The ghost ring sights on my 450 are about the best iron sights I have ever used. I even installed a set of ghost ring sights on my pistol and they seem to work well, although not everybody likes them. Realistically I'm not anywhere near as good of a shot as Budd, and I don't have much business shooting out past 150-200 yards or so, where the iron sights work fine. My bolt guns both have scopes which I prefer for anything but close range, but I haven't fired either of them since I got the marlin. +++ #11151 From: "FredK" nov222pa@c... Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun I got one of these in 45-70 http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/index.php?cat=4&subcat=7 as a cheep way to shoot that big old bullet. Three shells are strapped to the stock. I put a quick follow up shot threw a buck on a swamp drive and no one thought it was me! Like to have Ghost rings and a gold bead, but not much beats having the gun come to your shoulder good, no matter the sight. Don't send any of those hot bear bullets out of it though, been told. Can anyone describe how the CoPilot breaks down? What has been done to the gun? +++ #11153 From: Budd Davisson > The .440 Marlin would be a more modern choice > Did you mean the 444Marlin? yes +++ #11154 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: OT: Bush gun One of the long barrel versions of this won the long rang Quigley portion of the national Cowboy Shooting competition last year. For quick follow-ups, stick a round between the fingers of the left hand. You ought to see how fast Cowboy shooters can reload single shots. +++ $Id: 6.4-Related-Ops,v 1.1 2002/09/05 05:03:23 bentonh Exp $