+++ 2022 From: John W. Morrison Subject: I can't beleive I'm asking this question! I suspect this question is more of a cry for support! I am closing in on the decision to build the BearHawk (I might add that it is leading three very strong contenders: the MustangII, the S18 and the Zodiac HDS) My goal is to fly the plane to Oshkosh in July 2003 (both the 100th Anniv. of flight and my 10th wedding anniv...she's coming!) Is this realistic? I have determined that I can manage about 20 hours/week, and I will have to have it done by January 1, 2003 in order for testing. I want to kick the project off by July 1 of this year. This timeline gives me 30 months, or, 120 weeks, or, 2400hrs of construction time, and 7 months of testing/development. Thanks for any advice, comments. +++ #2029 From: budd davisson Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] I can't beleive I'm asking this question! John, you came to the right place for opinions, if not factual info. First 2,400 hours would be tough, especially if this is your first airplane and this would hold true for any of the airplanes on your list with the possible exception of the Zodiac. The only way you could be sure of doing that would by buying some component kits which will raise the price but knock months and months off the construction time. Also, the airplanes on your list vary all over the lot in terms of flying characteristics and missions. They also range from UGLY (guess which one) to sleek (Mustang II) to just flat cute, Bearhawk. The go from Fast (S-18, this is the old T-18, right?) to SLOW (guess which one) to just right and downright friendly, the Bearhawk. Speakingon the Hawk, if you buy a fuselage and get someone to whack your your ribs and spars, you might make 2,400 hours, depending on your craftsmanship standards, interiors, etc. If you're like Russ, you'll have that amount of time in the wings. A better alternative is to buy the Hawk project that's on the site, (beanman@l...) and has professionally done parts (fuselage, etc) and strike off from there. I'll bet you'll still put close to 2,000 hours in it. Like I said, a great place for opinions and them's mine. +++ #2030 From: Donald Schindler Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] I can't beleive I'm asking this question! John, I dont know much about the Zodiac, but I own a T18(Brother to the S18) and have flown the Mustang. I lve my T18 but I must admit I am ready for the extra room and utility(and lower landing speed) of the Bearhawk. I hope you are not a big guy, cause you only have an extra inch of width in the S18 compared to the T18, which is narrower than a Mooney. I have Bifocals and when I rest my head on the floor I am having a tough time bringing the wiring and such into focus behind the panel. I am getting older and my body is instructing my brain to " go big " +++ #2100 From: John Morrison Subject: Pre-construction activity? I believe today will be the day I order the Bearhawk plans, having been convinced that it is going to be one of the most widely respected aircraft of the future, and having seen the tremendous network of support within this forum. The question is directed to those builders well under-way with their projects: What sorts of techniques should I be practicing while waiting to commence the building process? I don't have a welding unit, and from the discussions within the group, it would seem a gas unit is the most versatile (though MIG seems much easier and faster). Clearly I need to make a decision and then become proficient with the unit. Also, I have a standard 2-car garage in which to build, what sorts of tables should I construct? I already have a very solid table which measure 4'x8' (full sheet of 3/4 ply on a 2x4 frame)...is this worth keeping? Can anybody give me an ideal layout for the garage? Heating is not a particular concern, it never gets much below 10C here in Victoria. I have my garage wired with a 220volt outlet, lots of lighting (florescent) and good ventilation (though not sufficient for painting or epoxy resins). Thirdly, am I going to require a large sheet metal brake? If so, what length? And finally, which section of the aircraft is built first, the fuselage or the wings? Thanks everyone, incidentally, does anyone else get laughed at when they tell people they're building an airplane? +++ #2101 budd davisson Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Pre-construction activity? You're going to get a lot of discussionand opinions on this one, so I might as well toss mine in. > The question is directed to those builders well under-way with their > projects: What sorts of techniques should I be practicing while > waiting to commence the building process? I don't have a welding > unit, and from the discussions within the group, it would seem a gas > unit is the most versatile (though MIG seems much easier and faster). > Clearly I need to make a decision and then become proficient with the > unit. FORGET MIG, except for use on jigging. Get a gas torch, most use the Smith. Get a bunch of scrap tubing, but be aware that welding on short pieces isn't the same as welding on longer pieces because the heat sinking is different because of the increase in material. You can fake this by sticking a big bolt inside the end of the short piece of practice tubing and letting it suck the heat away, making believe it is a fuselage. > Also, I have a standard 2-car garage in which to build, what sorts of > tables should I construct? I already have a very solid table which > measure 4'x8' (full sheet of 3/4 ply on a 2x4 frame)...is this worth > keeping? Can anybody give me an ideal layout for the garage? Heating > is not a particular concern, it never gets much below 10C here in > Victoria. I have my garage wired with a 220volt outlet, lots of > lighting (florescent) and good ventilation (though not sufficient for > painting or epoxy resins). Get all the back issues of Bear Tracks, the BH newsletter. It addresses alot of these issues. Also, check Airbum.com, there is a part of the gettging started issue under "articles" that addresses some workshop stuff. > Thirdly, am I going to require a large sheet metal brake? If so, what > length? Forget about the big brake and make friends with your local heating/cooling shop. A small brake ($129 from Harbor Frieght) will do most of the rest. > And finally, which section of the aircraft is built first, the > fuselage or the wings? Bob advises doing the wings first, but people usually attack the part that uses the materials they are most acquainted with. Building the wings first, however, gives an accurate dimension for the wing fittings so you can adjust the fuselage accordingly, which is a helluva lot easier than adjust that dimension in the wings. > Thanks everyone, incidentally, does anyone else get laughed at when > they tell people they're building an airplane? A characteristic of Bearhawk builder is we look around at people and figure, if we aren't getting laughed at, we aren't fulfilling our mission in life. Besides, folks who don't do things like building airplanes really don't have much of a life anyway. +++ #2102 From: Alan Nauman Subject: Re: Pre-construction activity? I have not had my plans very long but I was just in your shoes. First, you will need to get a gas welder. Look through the archives in this news group for more information on the welding topic. Mig is not really an option as you will see in the archives. I have been searching for tools. As far as a brake, you will need to use a 8 foot brake but most people have that part done for them. I guess a four foot brake is good for most of the rest. You will also need to get riviting tools for the wing. There are instructions for a building table in the back issues of Bear Tracks that you will get with the plans. I think it is kind of suggested that you start with the wings. That is the first part described in Bear Tracks and where I believe most people started. The most important step is to order the plans and start reading. That is truely the first place to start. +++ #2103 From: Bob Romanko Subject: [Bearhawk] Pre-construction activity? Here are some thoughts: > I believe today will be the day I order the Bearhawk plans, having > been convinced that it is going to be one of the most widely respected > aircraft of the future, and having seen the tremendous network of > support within this forum. Good move! Buy the plans and study, study, study... > The question is directed to those builders well under-way with their > projects: What sorts of techniques should I be practicing while > waiting to commence the building process? I don't have a welding unit, > and from the discussions within the group, it would seem a gas unit is > the most versatile (though MIG seems much easier and faster). Clearly > I need to make a decision and then become proficient with the unit. As you know by now, MIG is good for jigging, and that's about it. If you're able, try out a few different torches. Most will do the job, but don't make the mistake of going to a local home improvement store and buying one that's too big. An old Victor J-40, a Smith, or a Harris will all work okay. Personally, I'm leaning toward buying a new Meco Midget. Gas welding is every bit as easy as MIG. You really only need to know two things with gas...learn to control heat and learn how the puddle changes as the weld progresses, especially when welding clusters. Flat stock's more forgiving. Frankly, I like gas more than MIG. Still, you don't need to practice welding for 6-12 months. For now, you only need to get good at bending ribs, using a fly cutter in a drill press while keeping all your fingers attached to your hand, polishing aluminum, and storing them all without scratching them. The steel work is WAY out there on your schedule. > Also, I have a standard 2-car garage in which to build, what sorts of > tables should I construct? I already have a very solid table which > measure 4'x8' (full sheet of 3/4 ply on a 2x4 frame)...is this worth > keeping? Can anybody give me an ideal layout for the garage? The EAA Chapter 1000 tables are neat, especially if you're cramped for space. The table in Beartracks will do just fine. Bob Barrows built two Bearhawks (in six years) on his table. Not only can you build an airplane on it, but it makes a great buffet table, as I discovered this past October at his strip in Fincastle (grin). > Heating is not a particular concern, it never gets much below 10C here > in Victoria. I have my garage wired with a 220volt outlet, lots of > lighting (florescent) and good ventilation (though not sufficient for > painting or epoxy resins). Looks like your garage conditions are fine. You didn't mention a refrigerator. Mandatory equipment, especially in July when you can't leave the beer outside anymore. > Thirdly, am I going to require a large sheet metal brake? If so, what > length? I lucked into an 8' brake for $400, but those are once-in-a-lifetime deals. I'm sure there are at least five places I could bend my spars here in C'ville, but an 8' brake in your shop is as much a status symbol as a John Deere lawn tractor in the driveway. My EAA chapter's drooling at the chance to use it! Frankly, a good 4' brake can get you through most of the project. You only need the 8' brake for your spars. > And finally, which section of the aircraft is built first, the > fuselage or the wings? You can build the rudder pedals first if you want, but I'd suggest doing what most of us are, and start bending ribs. It's good therapy, you can do it without waking up the neighborhood, and if you can get past the blood on your first five, you'll do just fine. You do have a first aid kit in your garage, don't you? > Thanks everyone, incidentally, does anyone else get laughed at when > they tell people they're building an airplane? Laughed at? Actually most folks just look at me, shake their heads in disbelief, give my wife a few words about keeping our children safe, and walk away....heehee.... +++ #2104 From: Tim Cramb Subject: Pre-construction activity? The back issues of the Bearhawk newsletters were included with my plans, think R&B (Bob) still does this. There is only one EAA Chapter on Vancouver Island #679 just half hour up the road, in Mill Bay. Dean Cramb (my brother) is the founder/Pres, they have meetings once a month. Contact Dean @ shoptalk47@t... Dean is on our Bearhawk list and is building a modified Montana Coyote/Eagle which is somewhat similar to the BHawk. He has built & relocated all new gear as the original forward canting setup wreaked havoc on the longerons. You can see some of Dean's project in the building of fiberglass wings tanks at Del's website under FAQ's> http://www.cordovanet.com/~packrat/planes/bearhawk.html Also on the Island in Nanaimo, Gordon Trites (member of Chap 679) is building a Bearhawk. So John, out there on Vancouver Island you are in good company. +++ #2105 From: John Morrison Subject: Thanks Tim, I tend to mention Victoria to give those in the US a frame of reference, but I'm actually in Mill Bay, likely not far from your brother. I keep my sail boat ("Jelly Bean"), at the Mill Bay Marina. I'm not sure how to e-mail your brother from the information in your posting, when I click on the address, nothing happens. I am an EAA member (about 1 week now) and I'm eager to get involved. I have been unable to reach Bob Barrows (no answer), so it may be next week before I can order the plans and back issues of Bear tracks. Could you indicate what length of table is required for the wings so I can rough it out this weekend? My home number is 250.743.8991 if you want pass it on to your brother to contact me directly. Thanks again, +++ #2106 From: Paul Foster Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:58pm Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Thanks Tim, As I recall the dimension for the table as called for in the newsletter is 4' X 18' with a 5/8" top. I believe the side rails are 2 X 8 with 2 X 4 or 6 stringers on 24" centers. Legs each 4 ft. are 4 X 4. Needs to be flat and level. One builder suggested a bolt through a nut welded or brazed to a large washer on the end of each leg as way to precisely level the table. If you have a bench large enough to lay out the form block which is about 66" long and a large vise you are set to start. Should not need the large table until ready to build spars and assemble the wing. At least that is what I am telling myself. I have form block made and ready to start bending nose ribs so I have not progressed too far. I am at work and if someone has access to newsletter they may be able to confirm the dimension of the stringers. +++ #2108 From: Russ Erb Subject: [Bearhawk] Pre-construction activity? What the heck, here's Erbman's opinions (strikingly similar to everyone else's): > I believe today will be the day I order the Bearhawk plans, having > been convinced that it is going to be one of the most widely respected > aircraft of the future, and having seen the tremendous network of > support within this forum. Good! You are showing your outstanding intelligence, a point that I'm sure everyone in this forum will agree with... Nobody else said it for me, so I'll throw it out. I highly recommend that you order the Bearhawk Reference CD ($20 US) (and that's not just because I stand to profit from it). Details available at http://www.eaa1000.av.org/pix/erbpix/bearhawkcd.htm > The question is directed to those builders well under-way with their > projects: What sorts of techniques should I be practicing while > waiting to commence the building process? I don't have a welding > unit, and from the discussions within the group, it would seem a gas > unit is the most versatile (though MIG seems much easier and faster). > Clearly I need to make a decision and then become proficient with the > unit. For airplanes, MIG bad, gas and TIG good. Decide which one you want to learn and do it. Check if there is a local community college that has welding classes. I have the Henrob 2000 torch. The concensus seems to be that there are several good torches (budd's favorite is the Smith) and the one that's best for you is the one you like and can use. A friend of mine building an Acroduster II decided to just get a TIG outfit and do it that way. Even so, welding is well down the road. I worked for at least two years before welding anything. For aluminum tools, call 1-800-OK-AVERY (or http://www.averytools.com) and ask them to send you a catalog. They have several tools sets you can buy, or you can put together your own (everything is available separately). > Also, I have a standard 2-car garage in which to build, what sorts of > tables should I construct? I already have a very solid table which > measure 4'x8' (full sheet of 3/4 ply on a 2x4 frame)...is this worth > keeping? Can anybody give me an ideal layout for the garage? Heating > is not a particular concern, it never gets much below 10C here in > Victoria. I have my garage wired with a 220volt outlet, lots of > lighting (florescent) and good ventilation (though not sufficient for > painting or epoxy resins). See the Chapter 1000 Standard Work Tables at http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm (also on the CD). > Thirdly, am I going to require a large sheet metal brake? If so, what > length? Find somebody who has an 8' brake. That will cover the biggest pieces. > And finally, which section of the aircraft is built first, the > fuselage or the wings? Bob recommends the wings first. I'm beginning to think there is as much work in the wings as in the rest of the plane. Then again, I may just be delusional... > Thanks everyone, incidentally, does anyone else get laughed at when > they tell people they're building an airplane? People who laugh at you are merely showing their ignorance (see first response above) and how they're not as cool as you. Then again, my wife thinks I'm nuts when I see our neighbor, who's idea of recreation is washing his RV (that's recreational vehicle, or land barge), and say that he needs to build an airplane to fill his time. But then I guess I'm biased... +++ #2212 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: Fuselage Wing Fittings I have finally started adding some pictures under the wing construction section. Many more to follow over the next several weeks as I begin assembly of the wings. I have the spars and most ribs complete (finished in 96 before digital cameral) so limited pictures will be available. However, I will take pictures of the 4130 pieces as I build next week and as the wings are assembled. For now, enjoy the pictures of the fuselage wing fittings. http://home.fuse.net/wjohnson/wingconstruction.html On upholstery, it appears that leather seats will cost between $1700 & $2000. Not sure I can swing that! Airtex charges around $1000 if you get the premium fabric - better but not cheap. Their cheap seats are still about $750. As I price fabric at $22 per yard, plus foam, glue, etc it appears that the finish work is expensive any way you go! An auto upholstery shop may be the right answer but quality may suffer. As an FYI and for your budget planning: 0540 Engine with accessories (Overhauled) - $10,000 if you do overhaul yourself. Probably more if you go with an O360! Muffler and/or Pipes - $1000 if your lucky Propeller - $7500 (New Composite 2 blade with spinner) Propeller - $4500 (Comanche yellow tagged with Spinner) Radios & Instruments - $4000 if your lucky Strobes & Electrical - $1000 Upholstery - $1000 Paint and Finish - $1000 As you can see, if you spend $6000 on the basic airframe over several years, approximately 75% of your expense will be in the last year of building. I am really starting to feel the strain on the wallet. Plan now . . . +++ #2505 From: mc_archangel Subject: Can I build it? The Bearhawk has the widest operating range I have seen reported and is probably the most usable aircraft I could hope to own. My concern with it is the building process. I have limited building experience to draw from. I am confident I could learn 95% of the necessary skills but, to do so, I would really need specific instructions on how to do things. My understanding from the e-group, BD pirep, web sites and a phone conversation with Bob Barrows is that the only instructions provided are the aircraft plans, with some additional info in the newsletter. I really don't want to find myself in a situation where I have a set of plans, wonderfully drawn though they may be, without a clue as to how to make the parts indicated in them. Now, to the meat of my question (finally). Is there a source of information that will enable me to learn how I can take a pile of aluminum and steel tube and make it look like the components drawn in the plans. If it is realistic to think I can build a Bearhawk, it would be my preferred aircraft. Unless instructions specific enough for a first time builder are available, I will probably chose to build a Zenair STOL CH-801. What are your thoughts folks? +++ #2506 From: mailstuff Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Can I build it? Most of us in the group have a specialty in one or another aspect of building aircraft. Most of us don't know everything when we get started, but this group is a great place to ask any and all questions. No question is too simple to ask, and chances are it has been asked before. Get with your local EAA chapter and check out this groups messages daily (archive the good ones) and you will be building in no time. Bob Barrows said it best by stating, "Don't think of it as building and airplane, think of it as building airplane parts and them assembling them. Concentrate only on the task at hand, or you will never finish." Also, many Bearhawk parts will be available pre-made in the near future. Just keep checking this egroup for details. +++ #2507 From: Schutt, Barry C Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Can I build it? Another answer for ya Mike, I got my plans without ever having a single day of aircraft building experience. Just started in. With Bobs' newsletters as my only guide. Followed his suggestions pretty much to the letter at least at first. Four years, including getting married, later I have all the aircraft parts made, have finished welding the wing fuel tanks ( I might add without ever having previous welding experience) and now am welding the steel fittings that go inside of the wing and on the trailing edge. The books from EAA by Ben Inglius(spelling?) are a great help, the welding training video from Tinmantech was very helpful also, of course the news letters and my local chapter of EAA all have helped to keep me going (not without some problems a few scraped parts some frustrations though) it has been a lot of fun so far and is now getting really exciting that I'm making some assemblies. And I'm a real klutz, if I can do it so can you. My suggestion is to not wait to l! ong, just get in and start and you'll do just fine. Oh, and I should mention the egroups Bearhawk group, which has a mountain of really good suggestions, solutions on which to draw, without which I would not have made as much progress (thanks guys) Good luck and as Bob says---God speed and quality first +++ #2509 From: Float-By Shooter Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Can I build it? > them. Now, to the meat of my question (finally). Is there a source > of information that will enable me to learn how I can take a pile of > aluminum and steel tube and make it look like the components drawn in > the plans. Well, it isn't like you are talking about a huge investment to find out. A set of plans, wood for a rib form block, some aluminum, tin snips, etc. and you could be in business. If the rib forming goes OK then try moving on to other parts. If you discover that plans building really isn't for you, you can probably recover most of your plans investment by selling them to somebody here on the list. When I started my project, I took the view that even if I never finish, the skills learned in the process would make it worthwhile by themselves. You need to get the set of 4 books from EAA by Tony Bingelis, or at the minimum get "the sportplane builder" and "sportplane construction techniques." Buy the Bearhawk CD from Russ Erb, it has a LOT of helpful pictures and archived messages from this email list which will help you get up to speed more quickly. > for a first time builder are available, I will probably chose to build > a Zenair STOL CH-801. What are your thoughts folks? Uuuuuuuuuuuugggggggly! +++ #2512 From: joel MAYHALL Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Can I build it? Years ago I bought my new house. It needed a block wall built and I didn't have a clue as where to start. My neighbor down the street was going to build his own so I offered my services(back bending labor) and learned the art of fence building. So unless you live out in the middle of the Mojave Desert (sorry Russ) you should be able to find a knowledgeable soul to offer your services. The real problem in building an aircraft is being able to continue to dedicate time, more than money, to the project over the years, especially when the building is not going smoothly. This is why so many projects are never completed. The Members section of the EAA web page has some good articles on building, etc. and will answer a lot of your questions. (HTTP://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/planning/bingelis_sa0393.html) Finally there's nothing wrong with the Zenithair 801 wilth a couple of minor mods such as retractable wing slats, removing the front training wheel, and putting a geared V-8 up front. Joel Mayhall +++ #2513 From: joel MAYHALL Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Can I build it? Opps, wrong web site address. You first have to enter EAA. (HTTP://www.eaa.org) then go to members section. Joel +++ #2906 rom: Russ Erb Subject: Report from the Upper 3 Sigma I don't know how you guys do your accounting... I recently punched all of my building hours and expenses into a spreadsheet. I'm getting ready to move a wing out of my garage and into a friends hangar, and thought it would be a good time to look into builder's insurance to guard against the unthinkable. (Insurance is like a survival kit--the more you spend on it, the less likely you are to need it--Cynics Statistics Bureau) Anyway, here are the ugly numbers I came up with: Time spent building/designing/planning (as of 14 July 2000): 2592.3 (+/- several) hours Money spent on materials: $5390.54 (+ some I probably forgot to include) Money spent on tools: $4369.57 And what do I have to show for it so far? One wing almost complete and parts to assemble another. By that count, if I spend about $600 more plus buy an engine, prop, instruments and avionics, I've been flying for almost 600 hours! Yea, right. So how do other builders claim to be farther along with far less hours? Granted I've spent a lot of time on corrosion control (alodining and priming), but nowhere near 1500 hours. I have some possible answers: 1. They don't actually keep track of the time and when asked, grossly underestimate. 2. They count time differently than I do or can't do higher math (like addition) 3. Their workshop travels at nearly the speed of light, and the time dialation allows them to get more done in one hour 4. They're lying 5. They're slapping the airplane together as quick as possible with it being barely airworthy (or was that Cessna...) Of course, these are the kind of numbers that kit manufacturers would never publish because it would scare builders off. Enough of that--get back to work! +++ #2908 From: Steve Harmon Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Report from the Upper 3 Sigma > I don't know how you guys do your accounting... You are a far busier man than I am, it must be harder for you to fit building into your schedule. I work only ten minutes from my house. My shop is only a 10 by 20 room in my house. I work third shift I can build from 7:30am until I get to sleepy if I don't flounder to much( like now that the fluting pliers I got from Wicks flute the the entire inch and a half space between rivets, which leaves no land to rivet on). I was going to keep track of my hours but I found it was to much like punching in. This work is supposed to be for me not for "the man". The most I do now is try to get something dune everyday. As for money spent, I believe, no I'm sure I am the poorest hawker out there. I started out by getting into the trap of building a shop first. after buying the plans I spent eight months buying tools. Finally I realized I had to start actually making parts. Now all I do is clip all of my receipts together and worry about it later. +++ #2910 From: mailstuff Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Report from the Upper 3 Sigma It's that engineering degree that slows down the process of everything. Visualize building the airplane and ways to make repetitious tasks less time consuming. One hour of thinking can be several hours saved building. I have an engineering degree plus several years as an a&p sheetmetal mechanic, and I find most of my engineering buddies that are building, are spending all of their time analyzing. Bob has already done the engineering, just build it. That much time on the wing is excessive if you want to finish before flying is outlawed. Quality and craftsmanship are two different things. Quality defines airworthiness and craftsmanship defines Oshkosh trophy winner. The Bearhawk is not something the big "O" judges give grand champion trophies to anymore. Do a good job, but make the decision now on if you are building to fly or building to show. Hope this is not taken the wrong way. I work long hours and am working on my master's degree, when I get to go in the shop, I have to be very productive with my time. Then again, doing aircraft sheetmetal for a living, I can build both main spars in a weekend. Primed and fully riveted. +++ #2911 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Report from the Upper 3 Sigma I gotta comment on this one! > I don't know how you guys do your accounting... I cheat...at least on my 1040 and Schedule C's..... > Anyway, here are the ugly numbers I came up with: > > Time spent building/designing/planning (as of 14 July 2000): > 2592.3 (+/-> several) hours Erbman...this CAN'T be right. What are you doing, counting Internet time (grin)? You must have a lot more done than what you're leading us to believe, right? Maybe you're just counting your time goofy. My rule of thumb is if I'm transforming or joining material, I'm building. I also add in time for tooling, studying plans, and planning. I DON'T count time fixing one of my three @#$% air compressors, exterminating mice, cleaning the shop, making coffee, or showing my parts to friends. I'm pretty careful with where I spend my time. Up to this point, the only tool I've made is the flanging tool for the @#$% lightening holes. Other than that, it's all on making wing parts. I'm going to ask the group later if anyone would like to sell their set of dies for the @#$% lightening holes, as I value my time more than money, as we all should. At least that's what the book I read every night says. > Money spent on materials: $5390.54 (+ some I probably forgot to > include) You MUST have bought more material than what it takes to make wings. The BOM I worked up shows a total cost of around $3,250 all up for my wings. That's assuming, of course, I had to buy my aluminum and 4130 like the rest of you folks (grin). > Money spent on tools: $4369.57 Good man! AWESOME! Proud to be associated with you! You need to put this on a T-Shirt somewhere..."I built a Bearhawk, and after I Bought All My Tools All I Could Afford Was This Lousy T-Shirt"! Here's a man with his priorities straight. > And what do I have to show for it so far? One wing almost complete and > parts to assemble another. Come on, Russ...you gotta be farther along than this. Maybe it was all the corrosion protection madness you've got yourself into? It's a lot like my shop. I could have put in .4 lbs/ft3 treated 6x6 poles and the inspectors wouldn't have known the difference. Did I? Heck no. I put in 1.5 lbs/ft3. Bought them special from Warsaw, VA. Now, with my last dying gasp of breath when the Good Lord's ready to take me home, I can pass peacefully knowing that the poles in my shop will be there long, long after I'm gone. Same with you. You could probably use a less time-consuming protection, but you're whacked out on this thing and thinking about the fifth owner after your demise. Hat's off to you, Erbman, but I don't have the patience to fool with all that water-based stuff. Three coats? AAAAGGGHHHHH!!!! > By that count, if I spend about $600 more plus buy an engine, prop, > instruments and avionics, I've been flying for almost 600 hours! Yea, > right. Thanks, Russ. Now I have coffee all over my keyboard! So, how's she handle? > So how do other builders claim to be farther along with far less > hours? Granted I've spent a lot of time on corrosion control > (alodining and priming), but nowhere near 1500 hours. I have some > possible answers: 1. They don't actually keep track of the time and > when asked, grossly underestimate. Probably true for some, but I think most folks keep track of their time the same. 60 minutes to an hour, 24 hours to a day, etc. > 2. They count time differently than I do or can't do higher math > (like addition) Now you're on to something. Here is where the problem lies. You could line up 10 builders and no two count it the same. As a test, we could make up a survey for the group with 25 examples of tasks related to building. Have them simply check "Yes" or "No" as to whether that time counts in the log. If it were well written, I'd bet no two would have the exact same answers. > 3. Their workshop travels at nearly the speed of light, and the time > dialation allows them to get more done in one hour I tried this once. It made my dog sick, and when we finally came back to the world, Clinton was reelected. I'll never do THAT again! > 4. They're lying Some folks do. Could you imagine going to Hell for lying about your hours in a build log? I'd rather go for cheating on my taxes (see above). > 5. They're slapping the airplane together as quick as > possible with it > being barely airworthy (or was that Cessna...) You can still "slap the airplane together" and have it safe and airworthy. I'm not building a show plane, I'm building a Bearhawk. It boils down to how much you want to polish something that no one will ever see. Heck, now that I've been thinking more about corrosion protection, I'm going for the fastest, not the most advanced or environmentally safe. My ribs aren't as pretty as Bill Johnson's, but they're strong and straight. My welds will NEVER look like his, but they'll hold when they have to. You just need to have the mentality of "no mentality" and not engineer anything. The closest I come to engineering in my shop is when I make coffee. I paid Bob Barrows for his plans so I didn't have to do engineering work. > Of course, these are the kind of numbers that kit manufacturers would > never publish because it would scare builders off. Do you really think many people pay attention to what a designer or manufacturer says the time is? Someone that dim should stick to land-based activities, not sharing my airspace! > Enough of that--get back to work! I'm employed by the "State" of Virginia, so I reserve the right not to respond to the profanity (the "W" word) in the above line. > (For the mathematically challenged--the subject line refers to the > idea that in a normal probability distribution, only 0.135 percent of > the population (i.e. extremely few) will be found more than three > standard deviations above the mean) See, Russ. Here's your problem! You KNOW all this "book learnin' stuff. That's what's slowing you down! You gotta get all this garbage out of your noggin' and start welding/cutting/riveting/etc. I'm tellin' ya...this just ain't healthy! To much learnin'. It's a tragedy. +++ #2915 From: Float-By Shooter Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Report from the Upper 3 Sigma > Money spent on materials: $5390.54 (+ some I probably forgot > Money spent on tools: $4369.57 I have to admit, I'm trying to picture 10 grand worth of building materials and tools all in a one car garage, still providing space to actually build the Bearhawk, and it just isn't happening. I think I am beginning to see where Russ' high build time is coming from. Go ahead and admit it, you spend at least half of your time moving all that stuff out of the garage before you can build, and back when you are finished. That doesn't count...... +++ #2920 From: Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Building Time It's about notches on the bedpost. I am about one year behind Russ in calander time. Just about to white goop the flaps and ailerons.Builders log reads, April 29, 2000 Started Flaps and Ailerons, target to finish end of Sept. Builders log is a calander that lists major events in the date square. Live is measured in years, community service is measured in hours! The Bearhawk is a calander scale project. I know when I started, don't know when I will finish. Most likely the "Spare Time" that I make available will all be enjoyable. I like to measure enjoyment in years not hours. It's not the building time that sets the pace, It's life that gets in the way. ( Russ must have a very stable life? ) ( Government employee?) The rate of forward movement has not accelerated since the advent of Russ Erb's CD........but the clarity of direction has improved dramatically! No matter how much I review the CD I never seem to get more building time. What gives? I mean, do I really care if Russ spends 5000 hours on the Gear? No, Heck no! I only want the next CD update in a timely manner ! And Bill's website hits the nail on the head. Both these builders have done it and can show it, when your doing it you know what a monumental task it is. When you are all done the number is going to be a Really BIG number. Who cares? Were all neurotic. +++ #2924 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Report from the Upper 3 Sigma > > Of course, these are the kind of numbers that kit manufacturers > > would never publish because it would scare builders off. > > Do you really think many people pay attention to what a designer or > manufacturer says the time is? Someone that dim should stick to > land-based activities, not sharing my airspace! Folks, this is to clarify something. I made the comment to Erbman's statement regarding manufacturer build times. When I said "Someone that dim...", I was referring to builders who are naive enough to believe manufacturer's build time numbers. I was in NO WAY calling Erbman "dim". I'm hoping everyone realizes this. Russ Erb is one top-notch Joe, and I have the utmost respect for him. This group is very fortunate to have Russ. I'd take a bullet for the guy, and haven't even met him. He can borrow any tool, anytime, anywhere. I'd pick him up on a dark night in a hailstorm in a cotton-covered J3. I'd donate a kidney to the man. He's just that good. Thanks. That is all... +++ #2925 From: Russ Erb Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Report from the Upper 3 Sigma > When I said "Someone that dim...", I was referring to builders who are > naive enough to believe manufacturer's build time numbers. I was in > NO WAY calling Erbman "dim". That's the way I interpreted it--I thought it was clear by the previous statements that I never really believed the 2000 hour number. I've read plenty of builders stories and not one yet has claimed to build in less time than the manufacturer claimed. (That is except for a friend who built a Pazmany PL-4. I don't remember the details but the story went something like this: Paz expected that it would take about 10 years to complete this airplane. When my friend finished it in something like 2.5 to 3 years, Paz was amazed. He asked how he did it so fast. The answer was that he didn't build it by the method that Paz recommended--he used a method similar to the way the Thorp T-18s were built, which was much more efficient. That doesn't count...) +++ $Id: 5.6-Ref-Scheds,v 1.4 2000/08/01 04:50:11 bentonh Exp $