+++ #1374 Subject: Re: Shops and such From: Float-by Shooter > > Man I've been gone for 3 days and ya'll wrote a book. > > Anybody feel like compiling all the shop related messages into an > article for the FAQ? I thought about doing it myself but I won't have > time for a while and by the time I do, I will have forgotten about it. We have a victim. +++ Includes threads on: - building structures - hoisting - www.miracletruss.com - Adams truss - shopping strategy - area - optimum area - new concrete curing - floor stains/sealants - creature comforts - raised wood flooring - work tables - electrical - adding welder service - planning - air - planning - condensation - pvc vs copper/iron pipe - static - lighting - fluorescent - warm fluorescents (5k Kelvin) - optimum amount - other - construction insurance - building structures +++ #1312 Subject: Re: orkshops was Marketing Director From: Float-By Shooter ...Also design at least a portion of your roof structure so that it will support the use of an engine hoist. +++ #1319 Subject: Workshops.....Hangars From: Tim Cramb www.miracletruss.com had a major discounted sale on their buildings last summer/fall. The response they got was overwhelming. Send for their free info pack. Some nice looking Hangers with living spaces....makes me drewl. +++ #1357 Subject: Premade Hangars....... From: Tim Cramb Here is the Miracle Truss 'Hangar' site...I'm talking last summer they had one on for $6,999. and got blown away by the response. If only our Dollars were close, like the good ole days..............goto> http://www.miracletruss.com/hanger.html +++#1353 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Steele, David A Todd, did you get any quotes for the 30 x 40 from Adams truss? +++ #1358 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Todd Chisum I have the info pack but did not request a quote. They sell the trusses individually, I thought I might go this way and build my own. A lot of people around here are building these, and they look nice. Our EAA chapter hanger is built with the straight leg truss version. I'll send in the quote form to see what they would charge to install the whole building and let you know. +++ #1367 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Stephen Wolfe For those of you who have a Home Depot and a Lowes in the same town- They both guarantee you the lowest price or they'll beat the other guy by 10%. If you're buying a lot of lumber, or anything else, give each of them a list for a quote, then let them beat each other up to get your business. Both have design computers available, and they'll both do the 10% thing on other competitors, also. Worth a look. +++ #6531 From: Jimmy Mathis Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Re: shop space Here in South East Texas the 20 ft containers rent for $60.00 mo. +++ - area +++ #1304 Subject: Re: Marketing Director? From: Steele, David A If things work out the way they're currently going for me and my family, within one to two years we'll be relocating near St. Louis, where the housing costs about half what it does here in Denver. Insignificant mortgage = money for a project! Which brings up a question: how much room would be adequate for building a BH? I may have the option after the move of building my own workshop, which means that I can make it whatever shape and size I want - within reason. If some of you guys had the option of building a shop for building an airplane (especially a big four-place airplane), how would you lay it out? This is only brainstorming at this point, so anything is possible. Length, width, ceiling height? I'm thinking that in an ideal world, something like a garage, two cars wide, but twice as deep would be ideal. I'm sure that this "ideal" will get clobbered by the budget VP (read: wife), but hey, I can still dream a little, right? : ) +++ #1310 Subject: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Todd Chisum Thanks David for asking about shops. I have a question of my own- is anyone familiar with the H&C Concrete Stains sold by Sherwin-Williams? I want to put some type of finish on my new cement garage floor workshop to protect it from stains and reflect light, etc. Any comments on floor finishes out there? As far as a shop, right now I have to build in a two car garage. It will be big enough until I get major components assembled, such as the wings of my Super Sport. One thing I did was to hang six 8' flourescent light fixtures to get plenty of light. If you build a shop and people say you are putting in too many lights or too many electrical plug-ins, then you know you're getting close to the right number. Just add 10% for extra measure to be safe:) Wire the shop to handle 220/240V equipment if your plans include a big air compressor, heaters, etc. If you have water/sewer access where the shop will be, put in a sink or at least a garden hose tap. You'll use it more than you think. My future plans are to build a shop 30' x 40' with 9 or 10 foot sidewalls. Can't decide at this point to go with a pole barn or something like the Adams Truss type of building (www.adamstruss.com). The 30 x 40 size is around the "break-even" point of being big enough to put a fully assembled Cub (Bearhawk) in and affordability. You'll probably want at least one door that is wide enough to roll your fuse through with the horizontal stab in place. +++ #1319 Subject: Workshops.....Hangars From: Tim Cramb If you go 40' x 40' you can move a 30'+ wing span just about anywhere in your Hangar/workshop. At our regional airport most of our hangars are pole Barns, with concrete floors (cheapest). The one I'm planning on putting up is a 40'x40'.....The Military is replacing old basement windows/frames, so seeing they were going to the Dump, I scooped about 50 of them to line the top of my three walls....(bi-fold door). A friend here has a 40x30 and he is selling it, as he just put up a 40'x50' last fall and thats what I call overkill...It's BIG! +++ #1361 Subject: Re: da woody From: John Uecker Must have screwed up this summer. Built mine 28 x 44 two story, not 30 x 40. wanted a little more wing tip clearance in my "Toy Barn" Smile Budd +++ #1370 Subject: Shops and such From: Bill Cox Man I've been gone for 3 days and ya'll wrote a book. Airplanes have been built and rebuilt in some very small spaces. My first few projects were in a 1 & 1/2 car garage. Then I worked for a time in a shop where we could have 2 DC3's and 1/2 dozen 150s without to much crowding. In the winter you were glad you were in Houston. During our few weeks of winter you froze because it was impossible to heat. When I was able to build my own shop and hangar a few years ago an old friend advised building the biggest I could afford. ( his is 100X100) I built a 60 X 40 that has grown some over the years. I do most of my building in a 20 X 28 work space that has white walls and ceiling and 9- 8 foot 2 lamp fixtures. +++ #6663 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:19:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Ken Beanlands kbeanlan@ Subject: New workshop OK guys, I get the chance to build the "perfect shop" to finish the Christavia and to build the Bearhawk/SE-5a Replica/RV-7/sailboat in (I know, I have to make a decision some time). I'm thinking a 24'x24' with a single 16' door, insulated, drywalled and heated. I want it big enough to assemble an RV-? completely inside or to attach one wing of the Christavia or Bearhawk. However, I quite often visit other garages and think "that's neat, I wish I'd thought of that". So, do you guys have any "neat ideas" about building, equipping and heating a garage/hangar/shop? Living in Calgary, Heating will be a big deal as it routinely dips to -40 in the winter. Thanks, Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #6664 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:51:51 -0700 From: G Von Torne 1vikinggvt@ Subject: Re: New workshop 24x24 is fine for the plane, But where are you going to put the tools? I built a new Toy Box " shop " two years ago its 28'x34' and its already to small. Now I think it should have been 48'x64' have fun. George +++ #6665 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:10:45 -0400 From: "Mark and Tina Lapierre" lapierre@ Subject: Re: New workshop > OK guys, I get the chance to build the "perfect shop" to > finish the Christavia and to build the Bearhawk/SE-5a > Replica/RV-7/sailboat in I'm in Maine so heating is an important thing here too. Not as cold as Calgary in the winter, but it's the same situation to a lesser degree. My shop is 30 x 48 with a 12' ceiling. My only source of heat is a Miller mobile home furnace. It's not the latest model, nor is it the old MMG that cracks on the top of the heat exchanger. I use an indoor tank because I'm too cheap to buy kerosene and have little faith in anticoagulants. I burn straight #2 fuel oil. I can work comfortably in a tee shirt when the weather is 0 degrees. It's never been much colder than that here since I put this in, but it cycles on and off normallty at 0 degrees so I know it'll have no trouble in colder weather. My Miller is set up as follows; The miller is a downflow furnace so it's on a cottage base. That's the proper name for the part from Miller that's just a steel box that sits between the furnace and the floor and has registers on 3 sides for the air to come out and blow across the floor. The fluepipe is 4" singlewall, straight up, and thimbled through some type L as it passes the roof. Forget the Miller jackpipes with the built in combustion air inlet, it's not needed in this application and it's a waste of money. I set the burner up with a 60-80-B Delaflow nozzle. The delaflo nozzles are intended for mobile home use with an outdoor tank and are set up with fewer and larger swirl passages in the tip. This is supposedly to keep fuel moving if it begins to congeal instead of plugging the nozzle. I find they stay cleaner longer in general use. Small nozzles like a .6 are inherently bitchy, but I'm 3 years on the same nozzle with no problems and a good looking flame. Now the trick stuff... I jacked the pump pressure from the normal 100 psi to 140 psi. This does two things, it increases the firing rate to .84 GPH and it pulls the fire back closer to the retention head so the hotter fire won't impinge on the cerafelt chamber. As a result of all this new heat in the chamber, I had to install a larger blower to keep the heat exchanger temp normal. Helps with my 48' long building too. The fire adjusts just like any other "normal" miller. Close the air shutter until you can see the solid part of the fire over the top of the chamber. Then open it until you can only see licks of the fire over the top and no part of the base flame. lock it down here and check it again. That's it. No CO2 test or smoke test needed. The stack temp will be about 450 degrees with the overfiring. Burns real clean. I have a 275 gallon tank. I heat the shop to 45 degrees at all times and only turn it up when I'm working in there. I normally use (2) 200 gallon fills per year. Last year I used 3 because I have a 16 year old son who works on cars in there too and has a bad habit of leaving the door open with the heat running for hours on end. Check with your local oil dealers that have a service department for one of these old millers and talk to the technicians, not the clerk at the counter. I used to be an oil burner tech years ago. Under maine law I was not allowed to weld a heat exchanger and was required to condemn the furnace if it cracked. There was an unwritten policy where I worked that any tech who filled out the paperwork to condemn one of these had first dibs on it regardless of who actually replaced it. Any crack in the heat exchanger at all meant a condemned unit. These were almost always discovered during annual cleanings. This type of miller furnace is prone to crack around the burner mounting plate and it's a very easy fix with a stick welder and some 6011 rod. I sold lots of these repaired units out the back door as shop heaters, years ago. I've never had one crack again after it was welded. Don't waste your time with a Miller MMG series furnace though. It'll keep cracking on the top of the heat exchanger and there's nothing you can do to stop it from cracking. Living in Calgary, it's very likely that you already know more about insulation and building construction in a cold climate than I do. I've had good luck with 6" of insulation in walls and ceiling, a ridge vent, and a 5" thick concrete slab with no insulation under it. My building is conventional 2 x 6 construction with a truss roof. You may want to plant some styrofoam under your concrete. My roof pitch is 5/12, but I'll bet your local building codes call for a steeper pitch to shed snow load. My 60-80-B setup is with a Beckett AF burner. Miller also uses Wayne burners and the nozzle setup is slightly different. I've never tricked out one of these, but I suspect the proper nozzle would be a 60-80-A (hollow flame). Stay with the same flow rate, angle, and pattern as the manufacturer lists when picking the nozzle. Just use a delaflo nozzle of the correct rating, jack up the pump pressure and check it for impingement. Mark +++ #6666 From: "Donald Schindler" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] New workshop Hi Ken, What has worked well for me is overhead, gas fired, infra-red. You know the long black tube with the stainless steel shroud above it. The advantages to it is that it is overhead(out of the way), can be bought in a length as long as your shop, and reflects heat downward in a uniform manner. You can set your work area up so that your right underneath it if you want. My heater is 70K btu(more than my house) and I have the Bearhawk work table right underneath it. It is the only heater that can effectively pre-heat an entire Bearhawk fuselage uniformly before welding. You can also run them off propane. Soldier on...Don 068 +++ #6668 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:28:55 -0400 From: Shelly shell@ Subject: Re: New workshop 25 x 50 is the perfect size. You have enough room to assemble the plane for fitting the wings, etc., and enough room for all your tools plus building a paint booth (Fred and I have submitted our scheme to Experimenter for future issue). I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. Shelly +++ #6670 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:51:11 -0000 From: rsmith@ Subject: Re: New workshop I would recommend an absolute minimum size of 24x36 which would give you enough room (barely) to mount the wings to the fuselage on the Bearhawk. My garage is 24x32 and with all the tools and work benches I could certainly use more room. For heat I would install in floor radiant heating. It is expensive to install, but economic to use as it heats from the floor up, your not heating a layer of air trapped against the ceiling. I've seen several shops and hangers built up here with it recently and the people who have it, love it. Rod Smith #246 +++ #6673 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:11:19 -0400 From: "TheStones" stonet@ Subject: Re: New workshop > go under ground! Earth Bermed at least if you have the perimeter space. Earth is a great moderator, but you need a thermal break between it and the structure as it is a pisspoor insulator. TimS. +++ #6677 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:24:22 EDT From: flyfisherden@ Subject: Shop I've been a member of the list for quite some time and am interested in the Bearhawk, but haven't taken the plunge yet. Mostly because I promised the wife I would finish building our new house before I took on a plane project. In anticipation of building a plane, I did put up a shop. Mine is 36 x 40 with a 3/4 bath. I have R-19 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I hung a commercial gas forced air furnace from the ceiling which takes the shop temprature from 40 to 70 in about 15 minutes. I put radiant floor heat in my house, which is a great system, but it takes awhile to heat the slab up. Since work often doesn't allow me to get into the shop except on the weekends, I didn't want to keep it heated 24/7. If I had to do it over again, I would have made it 40 x 50. It wouldn't have cost all that much more and it is amazing how full it gets even without a plane project. I enjoy reading the postings and hopefully will be ordering plans soon. I'm hoping one of the Bearhawks will be at the Arlington Air Show next month. Denny Bronson +++ #6682 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:41:27 -0600 From: Tim tlc2@ Subject: Re: Shop You know I have thought hanger sizes over a year now about twice a day and have talked this to death out at EN5 (Regional airport)....Mine which i'm still working on is 40x40'...... I'm enjoying building my hanger and will be blessed by doing it again next year on the property (145acres) spouse/myself just recently purchased........But the next one will be 50x50'....Reason's are: 50x40 stores 3 planes nicley.....a 50x50 gives you an extra 10' of work area without adding a lean-too like I have done.....Now it isn't that much more $$$...; The span for the door is your truss length (bldg width).....Trusses & a concrete floor are the bigger exspenses...50' trusses are only slight more @ 156.99 ea. compared to 40' er's @ 116.99ea.......14 trusses 4ft on center, Trusses of 2x6" top/bottom chord...This number includes 2 trusses for over the door opening (stronger attachment point for bi-fold) Now moving back an extra 10' only requires 2 more trusses as you use the same rear wall (it's just moving back) now add extra material for the two wall extensions....insulation/drywall/osb ceiling/metal siding...Done for under a grand. 321Tim +++ #6683 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:13:29 -0700 From: "Bruce A. Frank" bafrank@ Subject: Re: Shop I have been thinking about this for a long time. The "shop" at my house is part of an extended two car garage. Long before we bought the house someone made half the garage into a guest house. Great for when friends and family come to visit, but the remaining 12' X 40" is the pits. I have built little kick-outs or sort of dog houses off the side of the garage so I have a place to put the welding machines and tool boxes. With the equipment I have, drill presses, shear, small break, MIG and TIG machines and three Ford engines along with a Packette (0-470 equiv.) engine I find that no less than 50' X 30' would be necessary to house the equipment and all the parts with room to finish the plane. Ideally the full width door should be on the 50' side, but with dollies one could get the fully assembled plane out the 30' door. I do think that a door should be the width of the wing span plus 5 ft...that is if we are dreaming. As for heat, this is California (but then again 60 degrees now feels a lot colder than it did in PA). -- Bruce A. Frank +++ #1311 Subject: Re: Workshop Floors From: Tom Kennedy Green concrete usually needs one year to cure before applying any finish. Then you need to etch the concrete with a 10% muriatic acid solution before applying any finish. I've found that the most durable solution is to use a concrete stain which usually involves thinning the first coat considerably and then applying a normal second coat. The "solvent base" finishes give you the best surface bond as they chemically bond with the previous coats and if applied properly will wear off but not chip off. +++ #1348 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Brian and Nancy H&C concrete stain is a very good product. I'm a painting contractor in Cheyenne, WY. and use it extensively when someone does'nt want the expense of using epoxy. Either way, you need to acid etch the floor with 10% muratic acid in water. I use a pump-up weed sprayer to saturate the floor, then agitate it with a stiff push broom. Wait five minutes then douche the whole thing out really good. Make sure the floor is completely dry before applying any finish. H&C goes on really easy, but Tile-Clad II epoxy will last a lot longer. Hope I was some help. +++ #1362 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Brian and Nancy > Were do you get your Tile-Clad II expoxy? Tile Clad II epoxy is a Sherwin Williams product. Any SW store would carry it. +++ #1370 Subject: Shops and such From: Bill Cox I used latex floor paint on the shop floor. If a rubber tire stays on it for a few days it may lift it, but even with all the airplanes, cars, and bikes that go through here it has survived 90% intact for over 10 years and it is cheap. +++ #1325 Subject: Re: And speaking of lights From: budd davisson ...I was living in colder climates in those days and I also had two 8' electric base board heaters (a buck a piece), I put long extension cords on so I could lay them under or in fuselages or wings to get them warm enough to work on. This is not a problem that I worry about much these days. +++ #1328 Subject: Re: floors From: budd davisson Just bear with me, guys. I seem to be full of hints tonight. re: floors On my old shop I built the concrete floors up on 2 x 4 studs and plywood. It made it a lot softer and I could nail jigging blocks anywhere I wanted. On areas I worked a lot, I used two layers of 5/8's and when it got really beat up, I'd pull off the top layer and replace it. The best feature, however, was I heated the shop with an old oil burning furnace that was about 3 times the size needed for the shop (a hundred bucks from a heating contractor). I piped about half the plenum heat into the floor with big scat hose. The 2 x 4's were a couple feet short every other end so the air could blow in one end of the floor and out the other, winding it's way back and forth. Besides warming the entire floor in nothing flat, if I was working in a particular place for a protracted period of time, I just jig sawed a hole in the floor and put a vent in. I HATE being cold! HATE IT! It was about 68 today and I was wearing a sweat shirt most of the time. +++ #1335 Subject: wood foors From: dean robert cramb If your are going to do any serious welding, wood floors in your shop is kinda like having a Fondue in a dynamite shack! And to grow a good aluminum tree a Perrier water can will stop trunk corrosion. +++ #6547 From: "Todd Chisum" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 6:49 am Subject: Re: OTHER Shop Notes > Sounds nice! Out of curiousity, did you use anything to > increase floor friction? Sprinkle dust on wet paint, etc? No, I didn't add anything to make it non-skid. On the occasion when there is water on the floor, the smooth paint does become slippery when wet. Sherwin-Williams sells a powder that you can sprinkle on the wet paint that may be what you're looking for. I think they call it Shark Skin. Sherwin Williams also sells a floor/cement stain type product, I think called HCI. The paint I used cost $75 and was enough for three coats on a 20 x 20 floor. The HCI product is higher priced, and epoxy is even higher. The HCI stain would probably last longer on cement exposed to the elements better than the paint would. Thanks for the info on radiant floor heating, sounds like a great system. Todd Chisum +++ #513 Subject: EAA Chapter 1000 Standard Work Tables From: Rod Smith The last few weeks of my time off I have been busy building work tables. Up to now I have been doing all my building at my work location. Now I will be starting to build the wings at home so I will be attacking this project on two fronts so to speak. I have a large garage but I needed to get it organized and some work tables built. I have built four tables pretty much to plans as found at : http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm. These are a very well designed, very sturdy table 2 x 5' in dimension. You can bolt them together to make larger tables as necessary. I built one of them 4' wide. I will mount a roll of aluminum on the end of this and do my layout and cutting for ribs on this table. It will be away from the wall for access to both sides. The other three tables are laid out in a L around one corner of my garage. I will mount my drill press between the two on one wall and this will provide a large enough area to fabricate the wing spars. My hat goes off to Russ and the rest of the Chapter 1000 gang. Check it out. +++ #516 Subject: Re: EAA Chapter 1000 Standard Work Tables From: Tom Kennedy Those are well designed work tables! Do you or others use the screw levelers for the legs and if so where do you source them. +++ #517 Subject: Screw Levelers From: Rod Smith I made mine by welding a nut to a large washer. This was a builder hint submitted in one of Bob's first newsletters. +++ #518 Subject: Re: EAA Chapter 1000 Standard Work Tables From: Float-by Shooter Just thought I would chime in on the excellent work tables. Mine are "non standard" EAA chapter 1000 standard work tables. Instead of the trim strip called for in the plans, I put a 1/2" radius on the edges with the router to prevent snags, seems to be working fine. After building the first couple of tables, I found myself with a piece of plywood 3' by 4' which was too short for the "standard" worktable. So I made one a foot shorter than the others, and liked it so much that I've made the last 3 that way, since it is less wasteful of the plywood (4 tables from 1 sheet). It is slightly more wasteful of 2x4 lumber though. You need to be careful not to leave the finished tables unsupervised together, or else they will multiply and you will soon have a shop full of them. +++ #519 Subject: Screw Levelers From: Russ Erb I didn't bother with levelers, partially because I didn't want to bother, and partially because it forces all of the load through such a small area (I like the whole leg resting on the support). My garage floor is far from level, so this is an issue. I just shim up the appropriate legs with pieces of plywood and aluminum shims (the waste from lightening holes works well). +++ #521 Subject: Re: EAA Chapter 1000 Standard Work Tables From: Tom P. I built two of these tables as well. They're strong, versatile and well designed. I agree - hats off to Russ and EAA chapter 1000! +++ #529 Subject: Re: EAA Chapter 1000 Standard Work Tables From: Todd Chisum >Do you or others use the screw levelers for the legs and if so where do >you source them. You can get what is called "elevator bolts" to level tables with. They should be available at any fastener supplier, maybe not a hardware store though. Something I have used on work tables is to drill a hole in the bottom end of the leg, insert a 5/16-20(?) Tee nut and use a 5/16-20 carriage bolt for a level adjustment, if you can find 3/8 or 1/2 tee nuts and carriage bolts that would be even better. You will also need the Tee nuts for the elevator bolts. The elevator bolts have a large, flat head and a grip area like a carriage bolt for adjustment. McMaster-Carr also sells the elevator bolts. +++ #2541 From: budd davisson Subject: Scratches Re: Scratches A couple of thoughts about preventing scratches. The work bench should be carpeted with fairly deep pile carpet tht lets the chips (and rivets and drill bits and other small tools) sink into the pile where they can't cause scratches. Also, some of the aluminum from the UK has a thin, blue plastic coating on it, not unlike what comes on plexiglas. It looks like it might be sprayed on. If that could be found and applied to the raw sheets, it would work wonders to keep it from scratching. You just strip it off in the areas where you're riveting and leave it on until ready to start painting. Rule of thumb, No. 239: a scratch deep enough to catch your finger nail is about .003 deep and worth worrying about. Think about the cross sectional area reduction of a .003 scratch on a .025 sheet. Also, at the bottom of a pronounced "V" shaped scratch stress is increased approximately 15 times in the local area. +++ #2563 From: Donald Schindler Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Scratches Another tidbit to prevent scratches; staple pieces of corrugated cardboard to the top of your bench. The little bits of aluminum will fall in to the grooves and you can move your sheet on top of it without scratching. Don 068 +++ #6365 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Re: New wanna-be builder < engine salvage info snipped.> As to the space issue, I don't have any experience building a BH, but I am just finishing a Christavia with very similar exterior dimensions. You will probably find that all you will need initially is a reasonably sized workbench. You will probably spend the first year or so buildinbg wing ribs, wing spars, control surfaces, etc. Essentially, you will build a "wing kit". Most of these can be built in a very confined space. Even the wing panels can be assembled in a confined space as can be seen from some of the web sites, certainly in a single car garage. Once the wings are done, store them somewhere out of your shop and start on the fuselage. By now you are a couple of years into it at least. The fuselage will not initially be 23.5' long. You can cut out the first 3' as you won't add the engine mount and engine til much later. Also, you can cut out the last 2 feet taken up by the rudder and tailwheel leaving only about 18'-19' to store. You will want an additional 2'-3' at each end to move around the fuselage. However, you can build the plane diagonally across your shop. So, yes, you can build it in a single car garage. I've built the Christavia in a 21' x 18' garage, and until I put the engine on the plane, I could still slide the truck in beside the fuselage. Having said all of that, there are some reccommendations I'd make concerning building a new shop. The ideal shop would have enough space to have the plane sit on it's gear, with the engine, prop, spinner and rudder installed and with enough room to install one wing. For the BH, this would require a garage about 25' x 22'. This will allow you to do most of the fitting and cabling right in the garage. Another point is that if you were to strategically place an oversized door in the side of the garage, you could actually install both wings. I have a buddy building a Glastar that has done just that. He installed the second wing out through the door, then boarded up the opening so that the garage could be heated. He has some soft insulation poked around where the wing exits the shop. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #6514 From: Bob Romanko Subject: A Great Idea for the Spatially Challenged I just saw this on RAH, and had to blatantly copy it to our group. What an excellent idea for folks with limited space to build! Since women outlive men (something to do with who's the boss, I'm sure) I'd bet this could work almost anywhere. > I'm thinking about building a Cozy Mk IV. I don't have a > garage (I live in an apartment). Is there such a thing as > garage space you can rent to do the construction? How much a > month would it be? I'm willing to drive out to the central > valley, if workspace is cheaper. > > Does anyone have any opinions about the Cozy, as far as > homebuilts go? Are there any other designs I should consider? Get in touch with social services, meals on wheels, elder social groups, churches. Look for an elderly woman who has a garage but no longer drives. Offer to clean it out for her and rent it. Promise you'll be there 3 times a week, at least, and will check in on her when you're there. Looks so blasted easy it may actually work! Planter Bob Bearhawk #399 +++ #6516 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: shop space Space idea: How much does it cost a month to rent those on-deck shipping containers that have been retired and are rented out as on-site storage units? Along the same lines, one of the cheapest hangar/workshop ideas I've seen recently used two of the above containers (40 feet long), one on each side, with the space between bridged by pre-fab roof trusses held up by the containers. No sidewalls. Gave storage/workshop space on both sides with hangar space between. bd +++ #6525 From: "Todd Chisum" Subject: OTHER Shop Notes About 1-1/2 or 2 years ago there was some discussion on the list regarding shops, floor coverings, etc. For those that might be interested, I painted my gargage floor with light gray Van Sickle brand polyurethane floor paint in Feb '00. It has proved to be a good paint, reflects light and is easy to sweep and keep clean. I can't comment on how the paint reacts with car tires, since the garage is the shop and has never had a car in it. Another item I recently purchased is a dehumidifier from Sears. It pulls the moisture from the shop air very well. It is still hot in the gargage, but it is not like a suana anymore. I got the idea from a local flyer that has the same dehumidifier in his well-insulated 50 x 50 hanger, and it keeps his hanger very comfortable in the summer Oklahoma heat and humidity. Does anyone know of any do-it-yourself manuals, etc. for installing radiant floor heat in new concrete slab floors? Todd Chisum +++ #6529 From: "Daniel Fox" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] OTHER Shop Notes > About 1-1/2 or 2 years ago there was some discussion on the > list regarding shops, floor coverings, etc. For those that > might be interested, I painted my gargage floor with light > gray Van Sickle brand polyurethane floor paint in Feb '00. It > has proved to be a good paint, reflects light and is easy to > sweep and keep clean. I can't comment on how the paint reacts > with car tires, since the garage is the shop and has never had > a car in it. Sounds nice! Out of curiousity, did you use anything to increase floor friction? Sprinkle dust on wet paint, etc? Likely you don't have the problem of walking in w/ snow on shoes and falling on butt, but for some of us it's a concern. >Does anyone know of any do-it-yourself manuals, etc. for >installing radiant floor heat in new concrete slab floors? Check out the Taunton Press (http://www.taunton.com/). They publish Fine Homebuilding (nad a whole lot of other nice stuff). They have about the best DIY video/book combos I've found. Lemmee see. All I could find online was a reference to the Oct-Nov 96 issue: "HYDRONIC RADIANT-FLOOR HEATING by John Siegenthaler. Concrete slabs, thin slabs and metal plates offer different ways of routing radiant heat underneath every floor in the home.". Lemme look in the back stacks; I might unearth it. I do remember reading something about that in the past couple years. A quick online search turns up http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/; I'm sure you can dig up more. HTH--dan fox +++ #6537 From: yeomans@s... Subject: Re: OTHER Shop Notes/infloor heat I installed (had installed)infloor heat in my house and hanger. Runs off the same heating plant. A good source for the wirsbo information, sizing and purchasing of parts whithout local plumbing wholesaler hastel is www.leeps.com out of Chicago area I think. They sized my house and hanger. A local plumber quoted the job for not much more than I could have got the part. Should have bought the parts, the plumber didn't understand the system and didn't build the system correctly. The system is working well after a few home owner mods, and I would recommend that type of heat. If you contract it ask lots of questions, after doing lots of homework. The other very inportant thing to do is put in 2 inches of styrofoam insulation under the slab or the system takes too long to respond. Be sure the foam has the correct crush strength,,, I used Dow Blue board with a rating of 25 psi. Good Luck and keep warm this winter. Tom Yeomans BH075 +++ #6559 From: nov222pa@c... Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:07 pm Subject: Re: OTHER Shop Notes > Does anyone know of any do-it-yourself manuals, etc. for > installing radiant floor heat in new concrete slab floors? Online manual for hydronic heat..about half way down the page. http://www.jademountain.com/FrameIndex.html Frederic Kess >>> 20may03 #11298-18250 +++ #11593 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: EAA 1000 table suggestions > I'm building two EAA1000 tables this week, and am hoping for some > input from anyone in the group who has already done so. You do not need to reinforce them in my experience; they are strong enough as designed for damn near any use you can think of. Personally I liked Rod's 8 foot tables, cause they got the best use out of the plywood and 2x4s. The stock 2'x5' tables are nice but if you make those, can get another 2'x4' and you have 4 square feet of wasted 3/4" plywood that isn't much good for anything. You can make them all 2'x4' which doesn't waste any plywood but will use more 2x4s than the longer tables. They are kind of nice for putting in smaller spaces and you can always put them end to end for a longer bench. If you are going to paint them, do it in a light color (so you can see stuff on them) and do it before you use them for anything and get them dirty. They clean off easier if they are painted. And use square drive screws. -- Del Rawlins +++ #11594 From: Tim Subject: Re: EAA 1000 table suggestions Saw a kewl idea on one of those woodworkshop program, Think it was American Yankee Workshop (dude with beard/glasses)...Anyhow the workbench had a hinged board between the two end table legs with a rope attached......Reason being the castoring wheels were on this hinged board, so when you got to thyne desired location you pulled up the rope/board/wheels and the workbench sat 'Firmly' on the floor....Think plans are available 'also might be a show website....I'll take a gander later... 321Tim +++ #11598 From: Tim Subject: Foldup wheeled Worktable A Google search produces the desired results....> Also see jpeg Item# 0207 http://www.newyankee.com/GetProduct2.cgi?0207 or stuff by Category http://www.newyankee.com/Collection/bycategory.shtml 321Tim +++ #11603 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: EAA 1000 table suggestions Build it to plan--resist the urge to improve the design! 8^) The secret of their usefulness is modularity--resist the urge to make them three feet longer--they become much harder to manage. If you must do something with the 3x4 leftover plywood, use it to make a roll-around tool stand. I was going to do that until I realized I had no room for such a thing (previous shop) Erbman +++ #11609 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: EAA 1000 table suggestions > Build it to plan--resist the urge to improve the design! 8^) As long as room for an assortment of tables is not an issue, why not make different sized tables for different needs? They are easy and quick enough to make. I don't deny that the standard 2x5 size is overall the most useful, but if, for example, you have an 8' space that you want to fill with a workbench that won't be moving all that often, why hassle with putting multiple tables there and making sure they are aligned with each other? And going the other way, I've put the 4 foot version of the table in places where the standard 5' table just wouldn't fit. If you are going to be working in a very small area and just don't have room for tables you aren't using at the moment, then maybe the standard size is best for you. To my thinking, it is more comparable to the question of whether or not to install that full IFR panel or (for example) leading edge landing lights than making major modifications to the basic design. It all depends on how you are going to use it... 8^) -- Del Rawlins +++ #11616 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: EAA 1000 table suggestions Excellent points, Del. I was thinking in terms of open spaces, not of restricted spaces. IFR panel, landing lights in the leading edge--you really know how to peg a guy...8^) Erbman +++ #11622 From: "Tim Anderson" Subject: Re: EAA 1000 table suggestions Being a "mobile" person (active duty AF) I knew when building that my table(s) would have to move several times. I made four 2X8 tables, bolted them togther. It worked well. I moved last winter and the movers where able to deal with the four section. Long term, what the tables will serve in a second life is a person by person issue. A smaller size has uses, but then one has possibly too many peices and probably higher material cost due to more legs. personal choice. I had a very very uneven floor, (like several inches) and I simple shimmed them all level. Tim #398 +++ #11623 From: "Tony Chisum" Subject: Re: EAA 1000 table suggestions You will regret it if you don't put leveling on your tables. It is easy to do and much more professional than using shims. I also used 4x4 legs with dados for the 2x4's, and I used 2x6's around the outside of the top instead of 2x4's with 2x4 braces underneath. I also put trim around the top to help avoid splinters and it gives it a more finished look. I built um just like on the CD only alittle different. If I make any more they will also be eight feet long. Tony +++ #11624 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: more table thoughts I was going to stay out of this because everyone has such great ideas and I'm not sure I can contribute much. However, since I found my brain drifting, while trying to write an article about a replica Storch, and naturally the subject drove my brain toward work tables, so here I am. Like all of us, I've made building tables a life time study and one of the things I always do with a table now is face the bottom of the top structure with material that's the same thickness as the top: in other words, I make it like a hollow-core door. That way any changes in humidity, etc are equalized and the top always stays flat. Plus they are MUCH stiffer. They become like concrete slabs. It also allows you to use lighter material for the surfaces and the framing, if you want to keep them light. I've made some that are framed in 1 x 4" with 1/4" faces that are stiff as a sidewalk but light enough to carry around. Without going into detail I've always framed a bunch of tables at one time and lay the frames on the floor, end to end and side by side, carefully level them and drill matching holes through the frames so I can bolt them together. Then I bolt them together and skin the tops all at one time. That way the tops are all the same level regardless of how I bolt them together later, end to end or side by side. I often run the top wood one bay past the joint where two tables bolt together. Then when the glue has dried, I cut the tables apart and am guaranteed the top edges will always match. I put "T" nuts on the backsides of the holes in one frame and use a hole saw to cut access holes on the bottom skin after I've attached it. Make the hole big enough for a ratchet to work. 2" usually works. Leg levelers of various designs are always part of the deal. They usually include a 1/8" plate on the bottom of the legs with a 1/2" nut MIG'd into it and a matching hole in the bottom of the leg. I like the hinged wheel idea on Normy's table. It beats the hell out of the various methods I've used. I'm due to build some more tables for this shop, since I've been bandaiding it since I moved in. This thread may get me fired up to do it. But, probably not. Back to mini-Storches. bd +++ #11639 From: Budd Davisson Subject: PS: work benches Forgot: on a bench I'm going to use for a while I finish it all up and then tack a 1/4" thick piece of tempered masonite on it, smooth side up as an ablative surface. Then, as the surface gets beat up and crappy, I peel it off and put another one down. That way I also don't have to sorry about the bench top as much. 1/8" works too. Don't glue it down because it's too hard to get off (obviously) and when the humidity changes it upsets the balance from the top and the bottom surfaces and can warp the top. A few short nails here and there keeps it down but lets it expand on its own. bd +++ #15767 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Workbench Tweek [ Synopsis: I built some pseudo Chapter 1000 workbenches. Twisted plywood for the tops have left them twisted overall. I hit upon a solution to untwist 'em. ] Some time ago, I built a pair of the chapter 1000 workbenches, except that I modified mine to be 8' long. Russ might assert that this is the crux of my problem, but I insist it was the materials. Notice -- a poor workman blames his tools -- I'm blaming the materials. So the problem, as *I* see it was that the plywood I had available for the top was warped. I bought it anyway assuming the ladder-work of 2x4s under it would pull it back into place. (The 2x4s were remarkably straight.) No such luck, the twisted plywood formed the working surface, and I had no recourse but to shim up the short leg to keep the table from rocking. Hasn't been a problem up to now. Up to now, I haven't been working on assemblies that need to be straight, square and true (like Dudley Doright!). Witness my questions a day or two ago, re: whether to build the flaps and ailerons or main wing first. The concensus, if you can call it that, was that either can be done first, but the two must match, and you clearly don't want wash-in (the tip at higher AOA) in the wing, so best is to make the two very flat (no twist) as directed in the plans. I hummed and hawed about whether I ought to go out in search of a better piece of plywood to rip into two pieces, but then it hit me -- add a spring under the table top to pull it back into shape. A first thought was to build up a cable arrangement (with my now trusty HomeDespot nico-crimper) and a turn-buckle and a block to add some 'out of plane' action. Then a better solution hit me... I popped down to the 'Depot and bought for each bench a 10' 2x4 and 4 hefty lag bolts (5/16 x 5-1/2). After determining which were the high corners (and marking so as not to get confused once the table was flipped over) I unloaded and then flipped the table over to set to work. The 2x4 was laid diagonally between the high (when upright) corners and marked for places that wouldn't interfer with the screws holding the base table together, then drilled for the heavy screws. Smaller holes were piloted into the base table. Then with a scrap of 2x4 balanced at the middle rung of the 'ladder' between the tabletop and my new lever, the diagonal was reefed down to suck the high corners back into shape. Seems to have worked fairly well, and in fact, I think the 2x4 diagonal and hefty lag bolts were perhaps overkill. It seems to have sucked back into shape with nominal bending of the diagonal. I have two sets of 'leveler feet', a christmas present from my brother, that will also finally be installed on the benches to compensate for the tilt of my garage floor. That's my solution. Benton +++ #15783 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Workbench Tweek If you build a work bench that has to stay flat, skin both the top and the bottom with plywood so it's like a big hollow core door. Makes it incredibly stiff and resistant to twisting. In your case, you can pull it flat, put the back skin on and it'll stay. Both pieces of have to be the same thickness so humidity doesn't play tricks on you. bd +++ - electrical +++ #415 Subject: Re: pictures From: Float-by Shooter Cool pics, not only the ones Mike sent, but also your steel wing parts. I've followed with interest your experiences dealing with distortion and shrinkage, and am really looking forward to welding my own together to see how the TIG compares. Right now I am trying to decide whether I can hook up the right 220V outlet without electrocuting myself (or frying my new welder), or if I should wait for the town's only licensed electrician to get around to returning my call. I think there is an equivalent of a "wiring for dummies" book around here somewhere. After I get that sorted out, I have lots and lots of practice lined up. +++ #416 Subject: Re: pictures From: Tom Kennedy I'm a residential contractor and not an electricial but have replaced a electrical service and two electrical service panels without sparks. Contact me directly and I will try to talk you through it. +++#417 Subject: Re: pictures From: Archie Dunbar You need a subpanel with an on off throw and a 60amp breaker. Don't forget to pull the cover on your squarewave and make sure it is wired for the prober voltage. Mine wasn't! +++ #419 Subject: Re: pictures From: Steele, David A Wiring, even 220, is pretty easy. Just make absolutely certain that the power is off... I've got a huge weld puddle mark in my leatherman from when I was messing around in our breaker box after neglecting that very basic detail (opps... ). Every time I pull it out, it serves as an ongoing reminder not to get into a hurry. Oh, and make sure that the wife is off the computer, before flipping off the main breaker : ) It makes them very cranky when you don't... +++ #420 Subject: Re: pictures From: Float-by Shooter > Wiring, even 220, is pretty easy. Just make absolutely certain that > the power is off... I've got a huge weld puddle mark in my leatherman > from when Everybody, thanks for the offers to help walk me through it. Unless there are any objections, if I decide to do it myself I will probably ask here on the list instead of individually, because it should be of interest to some of the other builders as well. If I can get it done in the next few days, I will probably just pay the electrician to hook it up for me. Unfortunately the old fart who wired the building in the first place has retired and let his license go. One quick question: Archie mentioned a 60 amp breaker- I bought a 50 amp unit since the wall receptacle that came with the welder said 50A on it. Do I need to get another breaker or will the one I have work? +++ #421 Subject: Re: pictures From: Tom Kennedy When you size your breaker you need to address not only your intended use but all other possible uses. Is there a chance you will need more than 50 amps for any of your other equipment; not likely but you never know. The next consideration is that your breaker must always have an amperage rating less that your selected conductor, i.e., number "eight" copper with a temperature rating of 90 degrees Centigrade is rated at 55 amps therefore this conductor would be a good match for your 50 amp breaker. Since your TIG machine specs a 50 amp circuit I think you would be wise to move up to a 60 amp breaker. A number "six" copper conductor with a temp rating of 75 degrees Centigrade has a rated ampacity of 65 amps and would be a good match for a 60 amp breaker. Again the breaker ampacity must be less than the conductor ampacity. A number "six" copper conductor with a temp rating of 90 degrees Centigrade has a rated ampacity of 75 amps which would give you even more head room. I do not recommend aluminum conductors even thought they are cheaper. They have to be at least one conductor size greater than a copper to carry the same load and you have to periodically tighten the connections at the panel and outlet to maintain circuit integrity. They are also more bulky that the equivalent copper conductor and as a consequence more difficult to fish through walls and terminate in the outlet box. The advice regarding turning the main off in the service panel is sound advice; however their will still be 240 VAC HAZARD present in the service panel with the main off. You need to pull the meter to eliminate this HAZARD and you need to blank off or rotate the meter in the meter can so that you do not create a HAZARD at your meter can while performing the upgrade. I would recommend running the wire first then connecting the wire to the outlet receptacle and then, after having pulled the meter, fish the conductor into the service panel and connect it to the breaker and ground! This info is for a Residential single phase "three" wire service panel installation. If you are dealing with a Commercial two or three phase electrical system I would strongly reccommend that you have a licensed electrician perform the upgrade. There is just to much hazard here for a lay person to handle IMHO. +++ #422 Subject: power From: Float-by Shooter > When you size your breaker you need to address not only your intended > use but all other possible uses. Is there a chance you will need more > than 50 amps for any of your other equipment; not likely but you never > know. It's unlikely that I will need to run anything more, I am installing it in our warehouse since that is the only place I will have room to work this winter. There is already 220 there to run a table saw, but it is only a 20 amp circuit. I don't anticipate needing more capacity since the shop nextdoor already has a large compressor, waste oil heater, etc installed and wired. There is even the correct outlet and circuit for the welder over there (for my dad's buzz box), but no room for the TIG machine and no room to work since there is a citabria fuselage living there at the moment. > The advice regarding turning the main off in the service panel is > sound advice; however their will still be 240 VAC HAZARD present in > the service panel with the main off. You need to pull the meter to > eliminate this HAZARD and you need to blank off or rotate the meter in > the meter can so that you do not create a HAZARD at your meter can > while performing the upgrade. There is an outdoor electrical box where I believe I can switch off the power to the whole complex. > If you are dealing with a Commercial two or three phase electrical > system I would strongly reccommend that you have a licensed > electrician perform the upgrade. There is just to much hazard here for > a lay person to handle IMHO. Everything should be single phase from what I am told, and none of our equipment requires anything more so it probably is. Anyway, I found out why that electrician never returned my call, turns out he is out of the country. So I guess I know what I have to do. So far the plan is: 1) mount the outlet to the wall, run the appropriate conduit to the box on the wall (I am putting the outlet about a foot below the breaker box) 2) hook the appropriate size wires to the outlet 3) go outside, disconnect main power 4) (with flashlight) open breaker box, run wiring and install the breaker copying the existing 20 amp installation. Am I missing anything else? Thanks again for the advice, especially as regards wire sizes and composition. +++ #424 Subject: Re: power From: Stephen Wolfe I'm a licensed electrician if you need help. 606-342-8807 Steve Wolfe +++ #426 Subject: Re: pictures From: Archie Dunbar Just use your fifty and if its not too much problem then use the wire size for sixty in case you have to change. As long as you don't trip the fifty regularly, your ok. I have not had to use much power yet. Most of my welding on .035 is done with 1/16 tungsten and 85 amp output and the pedal is not more than halfway down most of the time. I would guess I'm only drawing about 25amps max out of the house current. +++ #428 Subject: Re: pictures From: Stephen Wolfe On a device rated for 50 amps, it should be fused (breakered) for 50 amps. The machine will draw 80% or less of it's rated ampacity at full load. If you put in a larger breaker and you have a problem (i.e., a short or overload) then the machine will have to use the extra amperage before the breaker kicks. This causes more damage than was necessary, and can also increase the chance of fire. Use the 50 amp breaker on your 50 amp welder. +++ #429 Subject: Re: power From: Charles Mcgehee If you have 3 main busses in the panel it is 3 phase. It could be 120-208 V/ac wye or its possibly a center tapped 240 delta which means that one phase to ground would be close to 207 V/ac. which would burn up your welder quick. the other 2 phases would read 120 V/ac to ground. If you do the hookup your self tape the ends of your conductors to insulate them from the buss and be careful not to become ground. If you are nervous about it get a licensed electrician. In either case verify what you have before preceding +++ #430 Subject: Re: pictures From: Charles Mcgehee I am a master elect. and will be willing to go over the does and don'ts if you want to contact me direct. I have AOL.instant mess. and my handle is puttytat37. My e/mail address is mcgehee2@hotmail.com Wish you luck! +++ #432 Subject: Re: pictures From: Archie Dunbar This was the rub. The machine that Del and I have says that it is rated for 120 amp input. I called the Lincoln tech service number and ask if this meant 60amp on each of the two 220 leads and they said No, I needed a 120 amp capacity in my service. I find this hard to believe and besides that I would have to go to a huge amount of trouble to get that kind of power into my shop. Since the thing came with a fifty amp recepticle I figured that the Lincoln people were out to lunch and I would just go with the 60 and if the machine drew more I would worry about it later. Any way if we hassle this out and decide that my breaker is to big, its no problem to go smaller. +++ #437 Subject: Re: amperage From: Float-by Shooter I found a chart in the manual that seems to spell out some requirements. For 230V single phase, AC/DC Stick and DC TIG welding at 150A/25% duty cycle, and AC TIG up to 110A/25% duty cycle, it says it requires a breaker size of 100A, and #10 copper ground wire. For AC TIG at 150A/25% duty cycle, breaker size of 125A(!) and #8 wire. At the bottom there is a footnote, that states "The National Electric Code permits operation at rated output and duty cycle from a 50 amp receptacle when supply lines and fuses are sized per this table." So there it is, in black and white. None of the projects I have in mind right now should require enough amps to make me modify my present plan, but I'm going to have to keep it in mind for when I eventually build my own shop a few years down the road. The wire sizes given in the book seem a bit light compared to what I have read here, and the fellow at the hardware store said to use, assuming they are using the same standards. As usual, the more I learn, the less I know. +++ #439 Subject: Re: amperage From: Stephen Wolfe You are confusing input and output. The welder takes in high voltage at low amperage, then uses the transformer inside to covert the electricity to low voltage at high amperage. My 230 amp stick welder is plugged into a standard 50 amp 3-hole range receptacle, and is wired onto a 50 amp two-pole breaker. Works as advertised. If you have an electric range, see if the plug on your welder is the same. If your house is a few years old, it probably is. (The National Electric Code changed ranges fron 3-wire to 4-wire a few years ago.) If it is, try it out. It should work fine. Output of an electrical device is measured in power, called Watts. Voltage x Amperage = Power An example: 120 volts x 10 amps = 1200 watts or- 10 volts x 120 amps = 1200 watts So you can see that by running your 50 amp 240 volt house power through a transformer in the welder, you can reduce the voltage to something safe to be around, while increasing the amperage to something that will melt steel. I should be home tomorrow night if you need talked through the hookup. You will need a surface mount receptacle that matches your welder plug, a 50 amp two pole breaker that matches your panel, however many feet of #6 aluminum SER cable it takes to get from your panel to where you're going(plus a little extra for the hookups),a small tube of anti-oxidant grease for the aluminum terminals, and a piece of PVC or metal conduit and a box connector (called a TA) with a couple of pipe straps to get from the ceiling down to where you're mounting the receptacle. Easiest way to get me is by pager. I'm in the Eastern time zone. 606-308-4668 Steve Wolfe +++ #443 Subject: Re: pictures From: Russ Erb Boy, I tell you! My phone line goes dead for a few days and I miss out on the whole 220 wiring discussion. I have one tidbit to add, which is important whether you are wiring a house or your airplane. Contrary to what you might think, the purpose of a circuit breaker or fuse is not to protect your equipment, but to protect the wiring. As long as your wiring is rated for higher amperage than the breaker/fuse, you'll be okay. If the wiring is rated less than the breaker/fuse, you're setting yourself up for an unscheduled fire. Your equipment will not draw more than it's rated amperage unless something goes wrong, such as a short circuit, at which point the breaker will trip to protect the wires (and, oh, by the way, keep your equipment from burning up). +++ #1312 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Float-By Shooter In addition to what Todd said, plan for the addition of stuff like your compressor and arc welder (every shop needs a buzz-box) not only in your wiring but where you are going to put them. Especially for your compressor, it should be located where it won't take up floor space, and preferably behind something that will cut the noise somewhat. Plan for stuff like your bead blast cabinet (think big), and maybe an adjacent lean to with an air fitting for a sandblast shed. +++ - air +++ #1312 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Float-By Shooter ... No matter what else you do, plumb your shop with metal air lines, with quick disconnect outlets spaced conveniently around the shop. Plan for stuff like your bead blast cabinet (think big), and maybe an adjacent lean to with an air fitting for a sandblast shed. If you will have a separate garage and the ground between is unpaved, bury a metal air line to your garage so you can use your air tools there if needed, without running a long hose. We have a buried air pipe between our shop and office/toy shop, so that we can run both buildings off the 175PSI compressor above the tire shop, with metal lines throughout both. +++ #1315 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: budd davisson A note on wall mounted, metal air lines: run them at a slight down angle and put a short 90 degree elbow at the down hill end with a screw out plug. With the slight angle, the moisture that condenses in the cool lines runs down hill and you can drain the angle every so often. Also, if you plan on sandblasting, put a coellessor and two filters in line mounted on a little pad that you can drag around with you. When you're sand blasting there is no such thing as air that's too dry. +++ #1316 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: Tom Kennedy My auto mechanic uses schedule 40 PVC for his high pressure lines. Got my attention! This stuff is a whole lot easier to work with than any metal so if it can handle the pressure it might be the way to go. Don't know if this would be a good idea for you tundra folks (-: +++ #1317 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: Dave Wolf Be very careful to use the correct plastic line. There may even be a specific type recommended by plumbing codes. As an Insurance Agent, I recently visited a repair garage that had plastic air lines that were working great. Two years ago I was in a garage when the line exploded(very interesting display, watching things go past your head). +++ #1318 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: The Stones Dont have a piece handy, however I believe the schedule 40 (thick wall) pvc is rated at 300 psi. +++ #1321 Subject: sandblasting... From: Float-By Shooter Another idea for making sure your air for sandblasting is dry, I put together a mini regulator and water/oil separator on quick disconnect fittings that I can plug in before my hose, if I have to use one of the outlets that doesn't have them permanently plumbed in. +++ #1322 Subject: Re: dry air From: budd davisson What I did was take two water oil separators and one of those fat coellesors and screwed them togehter with pipe fittings which made a little assembly about 10" long with quick disconnects at each end. Then I made a cradle for them and mounted it on a piece of 3/4 ply about a foot square so it sits on the floor nice and stable. Then when I want really (as in REALLY) dry air, which is somewhat redundant now that I've moved to Arizona, I just put it in the supply line. Otherwise, it hangs on the wall. It sure takes the worry out of blowing paint and takes the frustration out of sand blasting. +++ #1323 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: Russ Erb I use a PVC pipe system for air distribution. I use Schedule 40 (the thick wall stuff) for all of it. There is also a thinwall PVC (PVC 1120) which is useful for wiring conduits in my wing but not for compressed air. These are the ratings printed on my pipes: Diameter Schedule 40 PVC 1120 1/2" 600 psi 315 psi 1" 450 psi 200 psi There is plenty of factor of safety for my 125 psi compressor (4.8, 3.6). The compressor feeds into a 45 foot long "plenum" of zig-zagged 1" pipes. This volume allows time for the air to cool to allow the water to separate out. These all run downhill with a female quick disconnect at the bottom to drain water. Then a 1/2" pipe goes straight up about 4 feet to a water separator. It then goes to three outlets, two with regulators (one connected to an oiler, one not, third to an air blow gun). Screwed into the end of the PVC pipe are brass pipe fittings to adapt to the female quick disconnects. All of these brass fittings are connected by a galvanized wire running inside the pipe. One is then grounded to carry away static electricity. The wire could also run outside the pipe. I haven't had any trouble with water coming out the end of the line, but then I do live in a desert with 20% or less humidity. Water does collect at the bottom of the pipe. As for problems with wet air messing up the paint you're spraying, if you use water based paints (like Poly Fiber Metal Prime), it's not a problem! I agree that PVC pipe would probably not be good in the temperature extremes of our Northern friends. Works great down south, though. +++ #1334 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: The Martins Shop a friend owns uses schedule 40, and after a few years it's brittle enough to suffer a noisy blowout a couple of times a year. I was right next to one once, and boy, was I surprised. Sure is easy to fix though. (it's under constant pressure, but I don't know what difference that makes) +++ #1337 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: Bruce A. Frank >My auto mechanic uses schedule 40 PVC for his high pressure lines. Got my >attention! This stuff is a whole lot easier to work with than any metal so >if it can handle the pressure it might be the way to go. > >Don't know if this would be a good idea for you tundra folks (-: Certainly plastic pipe is easy to install but if it is not going to be protected it is easily cracked if bumped. A better choice and almost as easy to install is copper water pipe. +++ #1340 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: Float-by Shooter > Shop a friend owns uses schedule 40, and after a few years it's > brittle enough to suffer a noisy blowout a couple of times a year. I > was right next to one once, and boy, was I surprised. Sure is easy to > fix though. (it's under constant pressure, but I don't know what > difference that makes) Our steel pipes have been in place now for at least 15 years, and the most serious problem I am aware of happened last winter, when some water got into the underground line and froze, blocking it. The bead blaster was inoperative until it thawed (major PITA!). Of course they were installed a few years before I was old enough to start helping out in the shop, so I might have missed something. +++ #1341 Subject: Re: Air Lines From: Bruce A. Frank >Our steel pipes have been in place now for at least 15 years, and the >most serious problem I am aware of happened last winter, when some >water got into the underground line and froze, blocking it. Did anyone think to hook up the welding machine to the line to thaw it out? +++ #1370 Subject: Shops and such From: Bill Cox I used copper pipe for the air, but several of my friends have used the schedule 40 PVC for years without problems. +++ #1376 Subject: Shop Air & Sked 40 pipe From: Gary Danford The chapter pres of EAA chapter 75 was having problems when painting his corvette. The paint was spotchy or something and after repainting it for the third time he had the factory rep for the paint company visit his shop. The final word was the sked 40 plastic pipe. I don't know if it was the way he installed it or what but for some reason it was causing a static charge that caused the paint to cluster in some fashion. He replaced the sked 40 with black pipe that was grounded to his compressor that was of course grounded and his problems went away. +++ #1378 Subject: Re: Shop Air & Sked 40 pipe From: Tom Kennedy Good post and definitely something to think about. I think it was Russ who stated that he had grounded his schedule 40 installation. It was not apparent to me at the time that this was necessary but live and learn! +++ #1399 Subject: Re: Shop Air & Sked 40 pipe From: Daniel Fox Grounding is SOP when constructing dust collection systems out of plastic. There are lots of stories about ungrounded woodshop systems that throw a spark at the wrong time and set off some airborne finish (sawdust itself can be pretty nasty in the proper airborne mix). It should be enough to just run a bare copper wire inside each pipe, bring it out through a dab of RTV, and tie all of them to a single point ground. Unless, of course, the wire oxidizes inside the pipe (it likely gets a "soft sandblast" in a sawdust application). Maybe the black iron is the way to go. After all, iron will fixate any free water it sees. :-) +++ - lighting +++ #1319 Subject: Workshops.....Hangars From: Tim Cramb Florescent lighting.....One double tube 8ft fixture put's out more light and operates cheaper than two 2tube four footer's. +++ #1324 Subject: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Russ Erb > If you build a shop and people say you are putting in too many lights > or too many electrical plug-ins, then you know you're getting close to > the right number. Just add 10% for extra measure to be safe:) I believe it was a few years ago that our own Budd Davisson was writing a series of articles for The Experimenter about setting up a workshop. As a light junkie, I specifically remember his statement along the lines of "If visitors to your shop put on their sunglasses, you're getting close to enough light." I work in a one car garage (rather tight) and I have nine (9) shop light fixtures (2 four foot flourescent tubes each) in there. Still could use a little more... +++ #1325 Subject: Re: And speaking of lights From: budd davisson Re: lights I'm a firm believer in never buying what a lot of other people are throwing away and shop lights are a prime example. Just call a couple of commercial electricians and sooner or later one will plug you into some sort of commercial operation that is replacing all its lights. I once bought 400 (no that's not a typo), 4 foot, four tube fixtures, all in working order, all with tubes, for $1.25 a piece. Every friend I had wound up with a well lit shop. When I threw the switch in my shop, the lights dimmed for two miles around. One thing I did I don't see done often is I made a couple of little plywood cradle/legs that would hold one of those light fixtures at floor level in a 45 degree angle up. When working on a tubing fuselage, or anything for that matter, it was great to have light under the piece as well as on top of it. +++ #1326 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: Shelly Two things I love about my shop - High intensity fluorescents and a built up wood floor (on top of the concrete). +++ #1327 Subject: Re: And speaking of lights From: Stephen Wolfe I'm an electrician. The best lighting for a shop is two-tube, 8' High Output Fl. fixtures. They put out 110 watts per bulb, versus 80 per on a commercial fixture, or 40 on a shoplight. You can tell them by the end of the tube, which has a black oval fitting with the contacts down inside. They will also light up at temperatures well below zero. More expensive if you have to buy them, but they'll make up for it in better light, and energy savings. The best way to mount any fl. fixture is on hooks and chains, so that you can lower them or dangle them from one end to bring the light to your work. Put cheap extension cords on them, and receptacles on the ceiling. You can buy plastic bulb sleeves to protect the glass when you have them close to your work. Or get free ones. I do that too. +++ #1333 Subject: Re: Workshop Lighting From: Tom Kennedy GE has a new line of fluorescent tubes that have a bright orange wrapper on them. These tubes have a color temperature of 5000* Kelvin or the equivalent of sun light at noon. They make the old warm (3200* Kelvin) tubes look dull. These tubes will naturally give you excellent color perception and really warm up your shop. Got to believe these tubes will also lessen the winter blues in tundra/rain forest climates. +++ #1336 Subject: Re: Workshop Lighting From: Russ Erb > GE has a new line of fluorescent tubes that have a bright orange > wrapper on them. These tubes have a color temperature of 5000* Kelvin > or the equivalent of sun light at noon. They make the old warm (3200* > Kelvin) tubes look dull. Tom--what lengths do they come in? If there are bulbs equivalent to 4 foot 40 watt bulbs, I'll be interested. +++ #1342 Subject: Re: Workshop Lighting From: Tom Kennedy Home Depot stocks 4', 2' and 18". These are 40W and I believe targeted at the residential market so I believe the manufacture length depth will be limited. Look for the bright orange wrappers. I just did a kitchen remodel wherein I originally purchased the previously mentioned 3200 Kelvin "warm" tubes but discovered the 5000* Kelvin tubes when I went back for one. I then swapped everything out for the "hotter" tubes. +++ #1347 Subject: Re: Workshop Lighting From: Todd Chisum I did a little checking on those flourescent tubes Tom mentioned. I called a local lighting distributor, they sell the Sylvania version, the Design 50. Four foot tubes are $8 each, eight foot tubes are $13 each. A little shopping might get better prices. The GE lights are called Chroma 50. They also have a Chroma 75 (7500 Kelvin) that is supposed to be similar to a northern climate at noon. The 50's are supposed to be like the equator at noon. These lights seem to be used for growing indoor plants and gardens. Hmmm. Will you need suntan lotion when you flip those things on??? +++ #1351 Subject: Re: Workshop Lighting From: Tom Kennedy GE has plant lights. I think the 5000* Kelvin tubes are for residential color enhancement. +++ #1369 Subject: Re: Workshop Lighting From: Donald Schindler A good source for lights is an industrial supply house like Grainger. They have charts in their five inch thick catalog that will calculate based on the square footage of your shop the exact lumens you need for the type of detail work you want to do. It's really an exact science. I just did my hangar and it worked out perfect. Of course they have hundreds of fixtures to sell you too, but unless you want to get into serious bucks, Ive found that our Bearhawk electrician is right in that the 8 foot High output flourescents are tough to beat at $48.00 a fixture. Take care, Don +++ #1370 Subject: Shops and such From: Bill Cox I do most of my building in a 20 X 28 work space that has white walls and ceiling and 9- 8 foot 2 lamp fixtures. I still have high intensity lights on several tools and a halogen lamp that can be moved around. The halogen lamp is really nice in the hangar space, because even with a bunch of flourescents you still need more light, especially at night. The hangar has skylights and that is one of the better features since in the daytime no additional light is usually needed. - other - construction insurance +++ #3325 Subject: Project Insurance? From: Russ Erb I finally activated some project insurance on my Bearhawk. Those of you still wielding "Bob-Sticks" may still be well below the threshold of where insurance makes sense, but for those of you farther along, consider this. Most homeowner's policies or rental/property insurance policies will not cover your airplane project. Hence, if it gets damaged in a storm or fire or something else, it's a total loss. After all, I do live in earthquake country. Avemco sells project insurance that will cover your project. It will cover the cost of your materials, cost of "special" tools (which I defined as things you wouldn't normally use for woodworking or to fix your car), AND your DOCUMENTED building hours at $15 an hour. When I added mine up, I had about $5000 in materials, $5000 in tools, and 2600 building hours logged (whether you believe that or not). That came to an insurable amount of $49,000, for which the annual premium was $391. A friend with a flying Cessna 180 pays about $1500 a year for flying insurance, for comparison. I probably passed the point a long time ago when I should have insured it, but this was driven by the plans to move a wing out of the workshop into a friends hangar for storage. Since I have virtually no control over that hangar, it seemed a good thing to do. Note that unlike normal airplane or car insurance, which is based on a declared value, this policy only covers that which you can produce receipts for or hours logged, so you should be saving and organizing all of those (kind of makes you want to insure the builders log...) When I ordered mine, I talked to Jason Arnette. I think he's the rep for the western U.S. and also the "homebuilt" guy at Avemco. It's his job to keep up with the homebuilt market, and I was very impressed that he knew what a Bearhawk was without me having to describe it to him. In fact, he described it to me. You can find out more info at http://www.avemco.com. They'll be happy to mail you a brochure with more info, or just call the toll free number. As for our friends in Canada, I don't know what is available in Canada. We now return you to the discussions currently in progress... +++ - parting shots +++ #1354 Subject: Re: Workshops was Marketing Director From: budd davisson Will you guys stop talking about 30 x 40 shops. It's giving me a woody. +++ #1370 Subject: Shops and such From: Bill Cox You can't put in to many lights, air drops, or power outlets. And unless money is no object you probably can't build a shop that is to large. +++ #4163 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Digest Number 249 > During the winter I'm reluctant to heat the shop up just for > an hours worth of work after I get through because by the time > all my obligations are over, it's close to 7. Here's a tip. When we first moved into our houseit was May. The first thing I noticed was that the laundry dryer was vented into the garage. When it was running, it would get unbearibly hot in the garage and I'd have to open the garage door to work. I was cursing the idiot that designed that system. That is, I cursed him until the winter came. The typical winters day here is around -20 with -80 % relative humitdity ;-). Warm, moist air in the garage is fantastic. I've even seen filters that take the lint out of the air so that the heat is even better. Anyway, I have two vents now that I switch depending on the season. We generally time our laundry so that we can run the dryer over supper which makes the garage nice and toasty by the time I get down there to work. Corky, this may be a viable option for you. Even with a detached garage I'm sure that there would be a way to vent off the dryer into the garage. Hope this helps. +++ #4173 From: "Rod Smith" Subject: Shop Heat The posts I'm reading about heating your shop or garage for building bring back a lot of bad memories. My first project was a Glasair which I built in my two car garage in Casper,Wyoming. My attempts at heating the garage included electric heaters, and kerosene heaters and were never adequate on a subzero day. Try curing fiberglass at 45 deg. When I moved to Anchorage and was working on my Maule I started out trying the same routine (actually Anchorage is often warmer than Wyoming in the winter). I bought a used natural gas heater out of a house trailer for $50 but the local utility refused to hook it up as it didn't meet code. So I finally spent $300 and bought a Modine (30000btu) natural gas heater. Talk about wonderful. Just turn the dial on the thermostat and your garage is as cozy as you want. It is so great to work in comfort without breathing kerosene fumes. When I built the house in Wasilla it had a larger garage so I went with a 50000btu modine right from the start. If you are building a plane in a cold climate you owe it to yourself to have a comfortable, warm, well lit work area. Spend a little money on yourself and you will never regret it. +++ #4174 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Digest Number 249 Anyone who heats his workshop (except with electricity) should invest in a $35 carbon monoxide detector. This insidious gas can interrupt your project permanently! And to sooth the pain of this investment, when your project is flying, you can hang it inside to let you know when your manifold welds start leaking. +++ #4178 From: "Gary Danford" Subject: paint booth hear I enjoyed the discussion about heating workshops and have a question for the group. I have a 10X10 ft area in my shop (out of plastic sheeting) equiped with an exaust fan. It works perfect for painting and fabric covering but in the winter its too cold to paint. Poly-fibre recommends a minimum of 60 degrees F to use their products. So with that said I wanted to use a "Infrared Spot Heated" (110V) and very inexpensive to heat the paint booth. The plan is to heat the booth, turn the heater off, paint the parts, exhaust the over spray, turn the heater back on to dry the paint!!!! Questions: 1. The "Infrared Spot Heater" uses a quartz tube as the heating element so no sparks or direct flame and the fan exhausts "most" of the vapor etc. 2. Do you think there will be a loud boom? 3. Any other ideas for heating a paint booth. [ See followups under 'Painting'. BJH ] +++ #4179 From: budd davisson Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Shop Heat Re: heating Although this problem is one I've thankfully moved away from, when I was back on the east coast I solved my heating problem by keeping in contact with a couple of heating contractors. When they were upgrading a gas heating unit from a house of the righ tsize, they were all to happy to deliver it to me for $150. I just plumbed it, sat it in the corner and didn't bother ducting or hooking up a thermostat. When I wanted heat, I just plugged it in and it blew out of the top of the plenum and when it got warm I unplugged it (I tend to be sort of a functionalist, screw sophisitication). +++ #4182 From: Corky Scott charles.k.scott@d... Subject: Re: Shop Heat > 19. Re: Shop Heat > > When they were upgrading a gas heating unit from a house of > the right size, they were all to happy to deliver it to me for > $150. I just plumbed it, sat it in the corner and didn't > bother ducting or hooking up a thermostat. Ok, I'm curious, if that heater wasn't vented to anywhere but inside the shop, where did all the carbon monoxide go to or am I missunderstanding this setup? Maybe you did vent the combustion outside but just did not rig up any ducting for the heated air? +++ #4184 From: budd davisson Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Re: Shop Heat You're right, there was an exhaust outside, but no heat ducting from the plenum. +++ #4197 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Raised Floor vs Concrete > Somewhere back in the early BH e-group days, I related how I > built my hangar/shop with a wooden floor on joists with the > air piped under it exactly as you describe. It had several > added advantages including I could figure out where I wanted > the air for a particular project and cut a floor vent. I remember this from the 'workshop discussions', and had the thought that welding over a wooden floor sounds like the sort of thing you hear about on the eleven o'clock news. Having worked a few long days standing on cold concrete floors, I can certainly appreciate the comfort of standing on something a little warmer, and with a little spring to it. My compromise idea was to make up a pair of 'palettes', from two 2'x8' (half sheet) pieces of plywood laid over a grid of 2"x2" sq. lumber, like a short "band riser". Seems like it'd be light enough to drag around to where I'm working, and better, light enough to drag out into the driveway and turn a garden hose on it, if I manage to set it on fire. Adding heat would be really sweet. Perhaps couple this with the idea to vent the clothes dryer through it, and you'd be set. +++ #4198 From: budd davisson Subject: Re: Re: burning wooden floors. I used OSB (oriented strand board) for flooring which is a flake board and really hard to set on fire. As far as that goes, you really have to work to set any wood floor on fire and it smokes and smoulders for a long time before giving any flame. Still, I've formed a habit after welding and shutting the shop down of shutting the lights off and looking around the shop in the dark while sniffing like a blood hound. All that having been said, my welding cart has a fire extinguisher on it and there's one that I carry around and set by my feet when welding. My current shop has a concrete floor, but heating it isn't a problem, believe me, although, as I may have said earlier, I did have to wear a long sleeve shirt when flying the Pitts this morning. +++ #4208 From: sonny cilley Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Digest Number 251 A friend of mine has been in the process of building a Hatz bi-plane for the last 10 yrs and he has a wooden floor in his shop. the fuselage is all tube construction and to not burn down his shop (which is attached to his house) he went to a local newspaper and got their used printing plates,which I believe they throw away.they are thin plates of metal and he just covered his wooden floor with them. the floor is comfortable to walk on and won't burn. +++ #4225 From: "Donald Schindler" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Digest Number 249 A good cheap filter for the dryer hose is an old pair of your favorite woman's pantyhose wrapped around the end. Worked fine for me a long while back. The heater I use for my shop is a 22 foot, overhead natural gas infrared. I went this route since my shop is uninsulated. I tried the forced air but the heat just went up and out. One advantage of the overheads is they dont get in the way, and if the wing or fuselage is underneath you always have some heat as you work. I dont think their the most efficient units though. I just came back from a trip to LA. They had on the news three guys who got blown to hell when they switched on their halogen lamp while painting or something. Their not expected to live. +++ #4292 From: bearhwk272@a... Subject: Progress creates quandries Well, I have essentially completed the flaps and ailerons and am moving toward wing assy. Flaps and ailerons came out pretty good and look kind of like the plans. So I had a system to handle components but now what to do with the assy's? Pretty soon I might have wings and then what to do? So I got a harebrained idea, make a really big work table to assemble the wings and fuselage on. Make it really, really big, like 69" x 180"x 28" and then it can do double duty as a box for the wings. My crazy neighbors think I am now building and aircraft carrier in the " Man Cave". Well, It just so happens that a bench this big uses a bunch of wood ( $$$$$$). But if a guy was to build it out of 2" sq.steel tubing with .065 wall then I could practice welding also. Surprise! Cost is reasonable. Because I follow the Bob Barrows and Planter Bob school of Bearhawk Building the only acceptable way to weld was in position, take it the way it falls. Now you would think that if a guy was going to lay down 300 inches of weld bead that he would get a little better, well It helps. I welded much better than this in the past. A little voice spoke, " Welding is an art, a lot like playing a musical instrument, no matter how much you practice if you are incorrectly playing the wrong note you will never get better." " Back to basics, it is all in the puddle, very little else matters, practice perfect puddles." Perfect puddles make perfect welds. I feel better now. I think that in a few more weeks I will enjoy some MVP again. Bearhawk Building ------- The art of complex tools for simple tasks. +++ #4467 From: "Daniel Fox" Subject: Re: Oboyoboyoboy! I'm in Maryland. At least I think I'm in Maryland; that's what it looks like out the window. I paid Maryland taxes last year. I'll get back to you on that. Prolly looks much the same from where you stand. Since I'm a computer geek by trade, I do carry working papers and a visa to enter the Commonwealth. :-) My shop is unheated, because I haven't installed the woodstove I got for it yet. The guy from the oil company said the oil furnace I inherited with the building worked OK, but I can't get it lit, so it's unheated at this time. I do have lights, though (or "lat bubs" as they're known in Virginia). I got a bunch of 48" fluorescent fixtures to augment the 2 200 watt bare bubs. Guess who bought the cheapies at Home Depot? Guess what doesn't fire up in the cold? Guess who's working on getting his shop heated? Speaking of which, since you people know everything, does anyone know of a please-don't-do-that-it'll-explode reason not to T-connect the flues from the oil furnace and woodstove? The installation situation would be much simplified if I were to do that, and I wouldn't have to push another hole through the wall. Thanks in advance - +++ #4468 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Re: Oboyoboyoboy! I would STONGLY discourage you using the vent pipe on your oil heater as a flue for a woodstove!!! The flue on your woodstove gets about a zillion degrees hotter than the vent on your oil heater. No, you're probably going to want to put in a proper chimney. Consider a prefab stainless steel triple-wall unit. Not all than expensive, and just twists together in sections. I installed one about 15 years ago. Took all of four hours, including the roofing and framing around it. If all you want to do is light your tubes just go out an buy a kerosene heater. Heat rises, so it doesn't take long to heat 'em up to where they need to be. One other issue with your woodstove. Is your shop a SHOP or a garage in a residential neighborhood? Here in good 'ol Albemarle County, Virginia, you CANNOT have wood/coal heat in a residential garage, attached or detached. Has to do with gasoline vapors sinking and coals falling out of woodstoves onto the floor. No sense of humor, these building inspectors. Even if you say you'll never have a car in the shop (garage in their eyes), you're still fighting a losing battle with them. @#$% government. As if they are not enough, try collecting on your insurance if you burn your garage/shop down and you DIDN'T have your woodstove inspected by your municipality. Oh, INSPECTION?!? Does that mean you need a permit?!? @#$% government want's all the money they can get, so feel free to contribute. +++ #4757 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Fluorescents in unheated shop (was Oboyoboyoboy!) > My shop is unheated... I got a bunch of 48" fluorescent > fixtures to augment the 2 200 watt bare bubs. Guess who bought > the cheapies at Home Depot? Guess what doesn't fire up in the > cold? Guess who's working on getting his shop heated? I narrowcast'd a note to Daniel offering a remedy/urbanLegend I'd heard of but never tried. I'd heard a trick was to spiral a strand of fine wire down the length of the tube, unattached at each end, which somehow encouraged the ionization of the mercury vapor in the tube, allowing better starts, and starting at all, at lower temps. Since then I've done a little net-research, and come up with some info (www.repairfaq.org/), that I thought I'd share. I ran across this link, and the section of it in particular: that seemed pertinent. I ran my 'remedy' past the principals of those pages, and got back some useful info and understanding. Key things to check if your fluorescent lamps won't light up reliably are: o Right size ballast. Especially with 4' fixtures there's several types and wattage sizes. The ballast should match the tubes in use. o Fixture needs to be grounded, and the reflector needs to be tied to that ground. This was the bit that gave a little credence to my idea -- In swapped email with Sam and Don, they suggested (strongly) first to check the fixture and reflector grounding. Then that a spiral wire might help, but it should also be tied to ground. The idea is that there needs to be some capacitor between the tube and ground. The reflector provides this. A wire wrapped around the tube would provide a smaller, but narrower-gap plate, if grounded. The underlying idea is to distort or sharpen the e-field inside the tube, to help the mercury vapor ionize. I suggested laying a piece of grounded Al-foil across the tops of the tubes, with the idea of having area similar to the reflector, and 1/10th the gap, which seemed interesting to them. Don opined that a spiral wire wrap might work better and really only needs to extend in two inches or so from each end of the tube, the idea being to concentrate the e-field near the ends of the tubes where the filaments are. But this only helps for tubes that won't ignite. For steady, but dim tubes -- | Should both tubes glow dimly, then ionization is not the | problem. In such a case, the problem is poor contact with the | pins of the tubes, one or both tubes are bad, insufficient | voltage, bulb/ballast mismatch (wrong bulbs may fit but not work | especially for 4-footers which come in many wattages), or | possibly just a bad case of the bulbs being much too cold. Wire | or foil or other attachments to change the electric field | distribution will not help dim glow make the transition to arc - | only help with the tubes ionizing and glowing at all. I promised to feed back to them anything I learned, so if anyone tries these ideas -- whether it helps or not -- please let me know, and I'll forward the results to them. +++ #4759 From: "vic" <11acs@g...> Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Fluorescents in unheated shop (was Oboyoboyoboy!) I design & build stained & leaded glass windows for churches here in Florida where it often gets rather cold. (I returned from a Xmas vacation in Oregon to find my pipes had frozen, the solar collectors burst & the well pump burned out). In any case, I discovered a long time ago that I could get my balky florescent lights to start by wrapping a piece of 1/4" lead came in a spiral around the bulb and leaving it there. Vic #431 +++ #4766 From: Tim Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Fluorescents in unheated shop (was Oboyoboyoboy!) Tried this late last night on a 2tube 8' in my very cold garage......'No Joy'.... Just too-oo cold I imagine. I usually turn on my 250v construction heater for .5 hr before trying the Fluoresents lights and it looks like another 2.5 months of doing this :-( +++ #4775 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Fluorescents in unheated shop (was Oboyoboyoboy!) Ballasts for fluorescent lights can be obtained which will operate down to about 0 degrees. It's my understanding that the gov. is eliminating all 40 watt T-12 (12/8ths inches = 1 1/2" diameter) and ballasts by 2005. Then only the more efficient T-8 (1 inch) bulbs and electronic ballasts will be available. If you have to replace lights now, it is probably cheaper in the long run to go with the more expensive 1 " tubes amd electronic ballasts. +++ $Id: 3.3-Tools-Workshop,v 1.8 2003/05/22 04:15:05 bentonh Exp $