+++ #17 Subject: More Riveting Tips From: Russ Erb Been out in the garage again, this time riveting the attach angles to the main spars. As is the trouble with being a trained observer, I noticed some things I thought ya'll might find useful to know. First of all, there's still a lot to be said for experience. I've noticed these things because I've been doing a lot of riveting (mostly acceptable, some less than acceptable) so I've had plenty of chances to do it right and plenty of chances to screw it up. Since I hadn't been riveting for 2 to 2-1/2 months, the first day was rather nerve-wracking. Nerve-wracking because it is still difficult to have any sort of closed-loop control over the riveting process. So much of it is do it, then inspect to see if you got lucky or if you screwed it up. That was Friday. By today, Sunday, I was much more relaxed because I was practiced and things were generally going much better. I can't give you experience by e-mail, but I can tell you what I've noticed in hopes of helping you gain experience faster. Most of the fun in this procedure came about from the rivet heads being so close to the angle flange. That's if you drilled it accurately. Get the 5/32" hole in the spar cap about 0.050" off the wrong direction (that's about 1/3 the hole diameter) and the rivet head is riding up on the bend radius. I know. I had a few like that. If it's not real bad, driving the rivet will conform the head to the part. If it was worse, I sanded off one side of the rivet head so that it would start out on the part. While doing this, I put a piece of 5/32" ID (3/16" tube?) brass tube over the shaft of the rivet to protect it from being sanded. The other fun part of this is that my straight rivet sets were of large enough diameter that they interfered with the flange and would not set down on the rivet head properly. I had some double offset rivet sets which are meant for getting into tight places. They are of minimum diameter around the cup for the rivet head and thus would fit in adequately. It takes a while to get used to using them, since they cannot just arbitrarily rotate in the rivet gun--you have to control which direction it's going. My 3X gun has plenty of reserve power for driving -4 rivets, so they weren't a big problem. Again, I engaged my brain, pulled just enough on the trigger to get the hammering started, then increased it as necessary to get the rivet to upset. The -5 rivets in the spar caps were another story. The 3X gun apparently doesn't have a lot of reserve power for these--it takes pretty much all the gun can deliver. Driving all of the other -5 rivets with the straight set took a full trigger squeeze. What I found with the double offset set (sort of a really flat S-shape) was that even with a full trigger pull, it was taking about 2 to 3 times longer to set the rivet, and almost wasn't happening. Besides giving you more chances for the gun to slip, hitting a rivet just barely enough to deform it can work harden it so that it is much more likely to crack than the other rivets. I hypothesized that the problem was the double offset set was flexing a slight amount on each blow, which was lessening the force on the rivet. This was reasonably confirmed when I decided to take my straight rivet set and grind one side flat to give clearance form the angle flange. When I used the straight set, the -5 rivets upset reasonably quickly and as fast as I remembered them upsetting. I wouldn't have thought it would make that much difference, but it did. I've started to notice what I'm doing with the bucking bar on the successful rivets. It seems that the first few blows to the rivet are the critical ones to decide whether the rivet is going to set properly or if it is going to smoosh over to one side. Once it's started properly, you have to work real hard to screw it up. The trick is to (1) have the bucking bar lined up perpindicular to the rivet, and (2) don't let it move around. If the first hit starts the bucking bar moving to one side, it will keep moving for several blows before your brain realizes it's moving and tries to stop it. This movement will greatly influence the rivet to smoosh over to one side instead of coming down straight. If you are holding the bucking bar in free space, chances are good it will move. I've found the best solution is to make sure that some part of my hand is resting on the part. This helps to stabilize your hand and gives you quicker (tactile) feedback if the bucking bar moves. So you did screw up and get one to lay over. Think real hard about it before you start drilling it out. Especially if the part under the shop head is 0.032 or 0.025 sheet. If you drill off the rivet head and then drive out the rivet, chances are very good that you will deform/damage that sheet as the rivet comes out through it. Remember that the shank of the rivet increased in diameter a little while driving. A shop head smooshed to one side does not really decrease it's strength noticeably--it's just not as pretty. If it looks like it should be plenty strong and driving it out will likely damage a part, just leave it in. I've found the rivets will come out easier if after drilling off the manufactured head, you drill part way down the shank with a smaller drill (not all the way through!) before driving it out with a punch. The rivet can't hold on the side of the hole as well with all of the material gone in the middle. This is mainly for long rivets through thick parts. Driving small rivets through big, heavy, thick parts is challenging. The place this is most noticeable is at the root end of the main spar on the -4 rivets. With over 1/2" of aluminum under it, it seems that most of the force of the rivet gun goes to smooshing the manufactured head between the set and the part, and very little force gets through to the other end to upset the rivet. It feels totally different than anywhere else on the spar. Most noticeable is that the set is much more likely to bounce off the part, coming down for the next stroke in the wrong place resulting in nasty dents. You need to use just enough force to upset the rivet and no more. If you're more industrious than I've been, you could adapt a cupped set from a squeezer to a bucking bar and then back-rivet these rivets (gun on the shop head end). A warning if you decide to rivet the attach angles to the spar first instead of the ribs: Drilling the holes to attach the ribs will not be a problem, especially with a 90° angle drill. However, the rivet gun and set is longer than the space between nose ribs. This will mean that I will have to start at one end of the spar to attach nose ribs and work toward the other end. Otherwise I won't be able to get the rivet gun in there. With a longer set and working through the lightening holes it might be possible to make it work, but better to plan to avoid the problem up front. +++ #19 Subject: Still another riveting tip From: Russ Erb More rivets, more spars, more insights... Remember in the last post how I said there was a problem when riveting through very heavy structure that the structure absorbs some of the rivet gun blow and less of it gets to the other end to form the shop head? The result of this is that it is very easy to smoosh (the technical term) the manufactured head between the set and the structure. Well, it turns out there was more to this than I said at the time. In general, the mass of the structure around the rivet affects how hard you have to drive the rivet to upset it. This became clear as I was riveting the angles on the outer portion of the main spar, where I'm driving -4 rivets through 2 or 3 thicknesses of 0.032 sheet. The thin sheets give very little resistance to the blows, and as a result the rivets take a NOTICEABLY smaller amount of force to drive. In fact, if hit with the same force used to drive rivets through 1/2" of aluminum, the sheets will deform. So what do we see here? Driving a rivet too hard is bad. On thick, heavy parts, you'll smoosh the head. On thin, light parts, you'll damage the part holding the rivet. The CLUEBAG: Only hit a rivet just hard enough to upset it. The best technique I've found to do this is to slowly squeeze the trigger until the rivet starts to upset, then hold it there until the head is formed. As you gain experience, it will take less conscious thinking to make this happen. Enough for now. Now get back to work! +++ #179 Subject: Thoughts on dimpling From: Russ Erb Last night I finished dimpling the front ribs and skin for my first flap, and, as usual, had some thoughts to pass on. As you may know, to use flush rivets on thin sheets, the sheets must be dimpled. Instead of cutting a countersink into the sheets, one is pressed in using a dimple die set. Typically, two methods are used to do this: a pneumatic or hand rivet squeezer, or a large deep-throat "C" shaped device useful for dimpling large sheets. Such a device is shown in the January 1996 Bear-Tracks newsletter. A similar device is sold by Avery tools as the "Avery Hand Riveting and Dimpling Tool" (Cat num 1001, $130), with other such devices available from other sources. Generally the squeezers are useful for holes near edges, such as on the rib flanges. The deep throat tools are useful for holes farther from the edge, such as on wing skins. The Avery tool, primarily aimed at Van's RV builders, has a 20" depth, which is sufficient to reach all of the holes in the wide wing skins except for the rib right in the middle. This is why the sketch in the newsletter calls for a 23" depth. Even then, neither of these methods will work on the flap nose skin because of the way the skin is shaped. To do these holes, I used the Avery Dimpling/Riveting Block Set (Cat num 4500, $29). Think of this as a bucking bar drilled to accept a dimple die, and a rivet set drilled to accept the mating die. You use it with your rivet gun to create the dimple. It worked reasonably well, except that a little more skill was required to get everything lined up to form the whole dimple. Also, be sure to reduce the air pressure to the rivet gun way back, as it doesn't take much force to dimple the sheet. Hit it too hard and you will unnecessarily hammer the sheet, smooshing it where you didn't want to. The Dimpling/Riveting Block Set can also be used with a squeezer set to allow you to "back rivet" a universal head rivet. Placing the dimple die in the side hole of the block and placing the block on the table will give similar functionality as the deep throat tool. My concern with welding up a deep-throat tool as shown in the newsletter is getting it accurately aligned to give good results. Besides, I know several local RV builders, and should have no trouble borrowing an Avery deep-throat tool. This will allow me to do most of the holes in the wing skin, and I can use the dimpling block and rivet gun to do the rest. If you don't have a deep-throat tool available to borrow, you can decide if you want to buy one (guaranteed aligned) and do like I've suggested, or weld up your own large enough to do the entire skins. Either way, you should find the Dimpling/Riveting Block Set useful in other tight locations. +++ #183 Subject: Building a Dimpling Tool From: Rod Smith Thanks Russ for another great post. I was not aware of the dimpling/riveting block set. I will have to look it up. Quite awhile ago I started building a dimpling tool as per Bob's plans. I haven't completed it yet because until recently I had not come up with a good way of aligning it. Now I think I have a plan that will work. I used a larger tube that the ram slides through and have installed a bushing. I started with a solid bronze rod 5/8" in diameter which I drilled through the center with a 5/32 drill using a lathe. I pressed this into the steel tube that was already welded to the upper arm of the tool and now have welded the arm to the base being careful to keep the ram tube perpendicular to the base. Now I am waiting on a 12" 3/16" bit that I have ordered. Using a drill press I will drill down through the bushing and into the base. That should insure the alignment. Then I will enlarge the hole in the bushing in steps to take a 1/2" ram with a 3/16" hole in the center to accept the other half of the die. I will post how it turns out. +++ #186 Subject: Another Round on Dimpling From: Russ Erb Work on the flaps continues. Now that I'm working with the trailing edges, I've found yet another case where dimpling methods previously used won't work. The trailing edges and end of the ribs are such tight quarters that the other devices won't fit. Of course, we're not the first ones to have this problem, and there is a solution. Avery sells "Pop Rivet Dimplers" (Cat Num 1022 (3/32") or 1024 (1/8"), $10.75). This is a clever set of dimple dies that fit on a nail and use a blind rivet puller to squeeze them together. The catalog says the dimples won't be as sharp as other methods because you can't get as high of a force with the blind rivet puller. Even so, when it's the only thing that'll work, it's the only thing that'll work. Avery also has a pneumatic pop rivet puller (Cat num 7891) for just $72.00. Count up how many pop rivets are in the flaps and ailerons and you may decide like I did that it's worth the price. I'll let you know how it works after I get one. A word of encouragement: There is a huge feeling of accomplishment and a shot of motivation in finally assembling all those pieces parts into something that starts to look like actual airplane parts! +++ #188 Subject: Re: Another Round on Dimpling From: Gaddy, Robert G I haven't started my Bearhawk yet, but did build (with help) 2 sets of wings for a Sonerai II; 2,000 rivets per panel, dimpled and pop-riveted. Believe me, a pneumatic pop rivet puller is the only way to go. Tip, with the dimpling dies that use a nail, turn down the air pressure for the puller (don't break the nail each time as would happen with the pop rivet). A good dimple is accomplished without undue distress of the skin which can show as a round mark the same size as the dimple dies. The nail will last for about a dozen holes before finally breaking. +++ #207 Subject: Pop Rivet Dimple Dies From: Russ Erb I got the dimple dies for use with a "Pop" Rivet Gun and used them to dimple the trailing edge of a flap and the corresponding ends of the ribs. Some things I noticed: 1. Considering their limitations, they do an acceptable job of creating dimples. 2. I use the hand rivet puller with the dimple dies, not the pneumatic puller. They don't require very much force to create the dimple. 3. Using these dimple dies is noticeably slower than squeezer mounted or rivet gun mounted dies. Hence, I recommend you use them only where nothing else will work. 4. To get the nail through the rivet hole, you have to un-bend the trailing edge and rib flanges somewhat. It's easy enough to bend them back afterwards (Good leather gloves will make this less painful...), 5. I wondered why the catalog made the point of explicitly stating that replacement nails could be bought at the hardware store. I figured if I didn't pull too hard, there wouldn't be a problem of pulling the head of the nail through the dimple die. Turns out that's not the primary failure mode. The puller grips the nail (or blind rivet mandrel) with serrated jaws. Not a problem when only pulling once. Pull on the same nail multiple times and the serrations continue to cut deeper in the nail with each pull. Looks sort of like a strange screw thread. Do this enough times and the remaining diameter of the nail is insufficient to support the tension and it breaks. No problem, just get another nail. Make sure you identify the proper size of nail and buy up a whole mess of 'em before you use the last one. Ever wonder why pneumatic rivet pullers have that big cylinder on the bottom? Well, I found out. The puller is a pneumo-hydraulic device. The big cylinder on the bottom has a large diameter piston which is acted on by the 90 psi air. This piston drives a much smaller piston acting on oil, effectively multiplying the force by a huge amount. This hydraulic pressure then acts on the jaws to pull the mandrel. Flap #2 is going together... +++ #240 Subject: Aluminum Rivets From: Russ Erb > I need the advice of those of you familiar with aluminum > construction. My project is a Cuby, and the ailerons are aluminum. > > The print calls out 3/32 x 5/16 rivets to construct the ailerons, but > does not specify the type. Any recommendations? Does anyone have any > experience with the Cherry N or Q rivets? It seems like they could be > used OK and would not require a rivet gun, just a pop-riveter. Can a > pop-riveter break the steel mandrel in the rivets? The first question you need to answer is do you plans call for blind rivets ("POP" rivets) or for regular (bucked) rivets? If it calls for bucked rivets, DO NOT even think about substituting blind rivets. A blind rivet does not have anywhere near the strength of the same size bucked rivet, because the mandrel in the middle typically does not carry a load. Now Kevin might correct me that in some designs of blind rivet the mandrel is intended to carry a load, but I'm sure he'll agree that you cannot "blindly" substitute blind rivets where bucked rivets are called for. If bucked rivets are called for, use them. If blind rivets are specified, now you have to answer if aluminum or stainless steel blind rivets are specified. If nothing is stated, my guess would be that aluminum are okay. Where I need a sealed hole, such as a plug in a steel part after oiling the inside, I am using Cherrymax rivets from the Aircraft Spruce Catalog. For the flaps and ailerons, I am using Cherry "N" rivets from the Cherry Commercial Rivet Price Table. Also note that while you may think blind rivets are easier to install, they are also significantly more expensive than bucked rivets. Yes, a pop rivet tool can easily break the steel mandrel in blind rivets. Most blind rivets, other than the really cheap ones at the hardware store, have steel mandrels. Bearhawkers--please chime in if you disagree! +++ #245 Subject: Avex Rivits From: rsmit- I can think of one other brand of "pop rivet" that you might investigate. Avex makes an all aluminum rivet that fills the hole completely once set. They are used by Murphy, Zenith and the C185 clone kit, cant think of the name. Best of all they cost a small fraction of Cherry brand rivets. I think you can buy them from Zenith, they have a technical article about them on their website. Go to www.zenithair.com, under Heintz Design College, riveted joints, article 2. +++ #247 Subject: Re: Avex Rivits From: t18co- One more comment about the pop rivets. My 20 year old T18 has a few Monel pop rivets used in places that would have been difficult or impossible to buck. I have seen no evidence of corrosion associated with these. I have seen corrosion where steel stem rivets were used in aluminum strutures. A good thing to do is dip each pop rivet in zinc chromate at installation. It acts as somewhat of an insulator and may help if drilling out is necessary later. I've also heard good things about the Avex rivets. Use driven rivets everywhere possible, they are much cheaper and you will have no worries about load carrying ability or compatibility. +++ #250 Subject: Steel Mandrels From: Russ Erb > I think you can buy them from Zenith, they have a technical article > about them on their website. Go to www.zenithair.com, under Heintz > Design College, riveted joints, article 2. In this same article, you will find a statement that the aluminum rivets with steel mandrels are manufactured with a special coating between the rivet and mandrel to inhibit corrosion. This was a concern of mine, and this is the only place I have ever heard it, so I haven't confirmed it with any other source. +++ #252 Subject: Re: Avex Rivits From: amsp- > I can think of one other brand of "pop rivet" that you might > investigate. about cherrymax rivets yes they do cost alot more then the avex and other pop style rivets.but there are a few benifits that you are paying for.first it carries the same structural load as a solid rivet will.second is when properally popped the cherrymax rivets stem is LOCKED in place.the only way to get it out is to drill the hardened center tii you drill off the locking collar.then and only then can you drive the steel stem out.third is that there is a special lube that will will keep the stem and rivet body from getting disimular corrision.those are the only rivets we in the mil can use as a replacement for a solid rivet. +++ #1104 Subject: Source For Rivets From: Russ Erb > Any body have a source for MS20470AD-5-13? Have tried AS&S, Wicks, > Airparts and my normal local sources? Gee, you must be riveting spars. I seem to remember that number as one I couldn't find, but was the right size for the spars through 4 capstrips. Why do I remember this stuff? My solution was to buy a bunch of MS20470AD-5-16 rivets and a Bench Mounted Rivet Cutter from Avery (Part #1320, $99). I used this to cut the rivets to the precise proper length. Not exactly cheap but much better than drilling out bad rivets because they were the wrong length. Two points to note: 1. Several sources say not to use rivets cut to length. As best I can tell, the issue is that if you cut the rivets with something like wire cutters, the end is no longer flat and the rivet is tough to drive straight. Not a problem with this cutter--it shears the rivets off with a nice flat, perpindicular surface. I did it on my spars and had no trouble driving cut rivets. 2. As designed, the cutter cuts rivets to a maximum length of 17/32", a little short when you need 13/16" rivets. My solution was to use a brass tube that just fit over the rivet cut to the proper length. Place this tube over the rivet, push it down in the appropriate hole, cut, remove tube. Come to think of it, at one time I was going to write up a newletter/CD article about it. +++ #1107 Subject: Handy way to trim rivets. From: bearhwk27- I will answer my own post. Yes Russ spars. I want to make a plane ...... not rivets! But if you have to make rivets shorter here is the Bearhawk Tip Of The Month 1. Throw them in the freezer. 2. Make a wood block .5 thick, drill a hole 1 number drill larger than your rivet size. Affix this assembly to your belt sander table so that as you look thru the hole you see the belt. Set the distance from the belt to the front face of the block equal to the rivet length desired. (If you Really want to be a True Bearhawk Builder you will plant and grow your own tree so you can have the pleasure of milling the timber prior to use ) 3. Remove rivets from freezer. 3a. Snip with sharp side cutters. 4. Turn on sander. 5. Shove rivet into hole. 6. The rest is history.* * fixture and process must be modified to meet each individual builders needs. +++ #1108 Subject: Re: Source For Rivets From: Bill Cox > Any body have a source for MS20470AD-5-13? Have tried AS&S, Wicks, > Airparts and my normal local sources? I bought them from Spruce last fall. You might try Freeman Aviation, I think the phone number is in some of the back issues of Beartracks. They seem to have most hardware. +++ #1111 Subject: Re: Source For Rivets From: Bruce A. Frank One method I have seen old timers (no insult intended), maybe I should say experienced artisans, use is an inexpensive pair of electrical wire stripper/cutters-- the kind that is designed to shear screws. The rivet is inserted from the smooth side of the hole, rather than the threaded side as done with a screw. The waste part of the rivet is marked with the thread in the hole and the remaining part with the head is smooth and undamaged. I have watched as dozens were set and there was no distortion of the expanded shank of the rivets cut this way. The 6, 8, 10, and 12 size screw holes don't match all the rivets perfectly, but seem to work satisfactorily to them. +++ #1112 Subject: rivets From: stephan pelgar in the mil i do alot of riveting.alot of the time we donthave the proper length in stock but hey that the goverment supply sys.we use a pair of rivet cutters.tit is like what he said about the wire cutter stripper tool but better.the metal is thicker and last longer and the handle is long to so makes it alot easier to cut.there is also a nice feature.there are the leafs that on it and you can set the height.then cut as many as you need.it will shear it off nice and clean so when you buck.the bucktail will be a good one.there in the aircraft tools and supply catalog for not to much.they make a heavy duty on that is great but also alittle pricier.i have seen them on ebay alot to.they seem to be gping for 20-30 bucks for the heavy ones on there.which is a very good price for there.(one thing about ebay know the going price in the catalogs before bidding cause i have seen alot of things being over paid for on there.especially clecos people are paying 40 cents a peice when youcan get them in a catalog for 31 cents apiece.) +++ #1114 Subject: Rivet cutting From: budd davisson > One method I have seen old timers (no insult intended), maybe I should > say experienced artisans, use is an inexpensive pair of electrical > wire stripper/cutters-- the kind that is designed to shear screws. This is probably the wrong time to say this, after the crack about old timers, but I've always used electrical pliers to trim rivets. If you want to make them work better, pick the screw hole one size too small and drill the threads out of the hole with a bit one number size smaller than the rivet which makes the rivet really snug in the hole and helps eliminate the tiny little tail that smears off the bottom edge of the cut. +++ #1136 Subject: Hand on your Hot Rivets??? From: Tim Cramb Interesting......I imagine the cold rivet's temper shouldn't be effected by the hot sanding, right?.....How about that Dental Oven thing that some RV builders try. Put simply, they heat up a wack of rivets to ? 600-700F? for a short time which makes them an absolute sinch to drive. Then after a few weeks the rivets naturally age harden back to their original specs....... +++ #1153 Subject: Re: Hand on your Hot Rivets??? From: bearhwk27- The reason for the freezer thing is two fold. 1. So when you shove the rivet into the belt the heat will not transfer as fast and burn your finger tip. 2. The beer is in the next door to the right of the freezer. I do not advocate the RV anneal the rivet bit as it can be dicy. Correct anneal is a time and temperature issue and 25deg to hot for to long and your rivets will not be what you think they are after age and work hardening. They will harden, but the grain structure will different with a lower TS and less elongation. +++ #1552 Subject: Riviting tools From: Alan Nauman I know it has been discussed a little bit, however, I am wondering what tools I need to buy for riviting. I saw a deep throat rivit setup in one of the Bear-tracks issues from 99 that looked like it would be good for the spars (the one in Bear-tracks was home made but it is sold through Avery tools for $130). A hand squeezer sounds good but that is at least $130 and it can't be used for a lot of the rivits. A pneumatic rivit gun is $175+ and I don't know about restrictions on the usage of them. Airparts has pneumatic rivit squeezers (surplus) for $100-300. What tools will I need? +++ #1555 Subject: Re: Riviting tools From: Bill Cox > A pneumatic rivit gun is $175+ Check the prices at the Yard on their surplus tools. http://www.surplusaircrafttools.com/tools/pneumatics.html I bought a 2X rivet gun for $49.95. It is a used name brand tool that works very well. It will drive all the 1/8 and 3/32 rivets. I drove the 5/32 rivets in the spars with a 4X gun although the 2X gun might do the job. When you are riveting if the rivet does not become properly upset with 1 or 2 short bursts it often becomes work hardened. With the long 5/32 rivets this could be a problem with the 2X gun. The rivet squeezers are invaluable where they will reach. I've used a hand squeezer for the most part in the past, but the pneumatics are great if the budget allows. I think Russ feels the pneumatic squeezer is worth the money. The deep throat riveter as shown in Bear Tracks or sold by Avery is very handy. I have used them mostly for dimpling and there is plenty of that on the flush riveted Bearhawk wing. +++ #1560 Subject: Re: Riviting tools From: Float-By Shooter This has been covered in the far distant past (like before I joined the list), but the deep throat riveter/dimplers haven't been discussed lately so here goes: Unless I am mistaken the deep throat riveter that Avery sells does not have sufficient reach to dimple all of the holes on the wing skins. IIRC, the homemade one shown in the newsletter has a reach of 23" and the one Avery sells is only 19" or so. +++ #1569 Subject: Riviting tools From: Russ Erb > I saw a deep throat rivit setup in one of the Bear-tracks issues from > 99 that looked like it would be good for the spars (the one in > Bear-tracks was home made but it is sold through Avery tools for > $130). Take note: the one in Bear-Tracks has a throat of 23", and is sufficiently deep to get to the center of any wing skin. The Avery model only has a throat of 20", and will not reach the center of some wing skins. It was sized for RV builders. I plan to use an Avery model where I can, simply because a friend who is close to finishing his RV doesn't need it any more and said I could borrow it. For the holes that I can't reach, I'll use the Avery Dimpling/Riveting Block Set (#4500), which uses a rivet gun and a special bucking bar. I've used it already on the flap and aileron skins where nothing else would work. Why? Just to avoid the hassle of trying to weld up the one shown in Bear-Tracks and keep it all aligned (that welding distortion is a pain). Get the 3X rivet gun. For me, it took the full power of the 3X gun to drive the 5/32" rivets. A 2X wouldn't cut it. Alan--You might check to see if you can get a surplus or reconditioned rivet gun from the Air Force Depots or any other source there. Otherwise Avery is an excellent source. +++ #1572 Subject: Re: Riviting tools From: Donald Schindler You might consider the Avery hand squeezer with some of their yokes. The advantage to theirs is that their yokes can also be used in their pneumatic squeezer if you decide to go that way later. The Avery squeezer is also a bit longer for greater leverage than the Tatco, but the Tatco is sexier looking(Ha Ha). The Avery 7755 longeron yoke is their most popular yoke cause it works for more stuff than the others. Good Luck, Don #068 +++ #1573 Subject: Re: Riviting tools From: Rod Smith I believe that if Avery was approached with enough purchasers, they would build a 23" reach model. I allready built mine but some of you may want to pursue this. Russ's solution sounds good also. +++ #1575 Subject: Re: Riviting tools From: Russ Erb > I believe that if Avery was approached with enough purchasers, they > would build a 23" reach model. I allready built mine but some of you > may want to pursue this. Russ's solution sounds good also. I know that he will, because I asked Bob Avery this very question back in 1996. Of course, he doesn't make these things one at a time. He sets up a production run and makes a bunch all at once. If 4 year old memory serves, it seems that he said he would be interested if we could find at least 10 builders interested in an extra deep throat tool. I didn't pursue it then because I didn't know 1, much less 10 Bearhawk builders at the time. +++ #1756 From: Donald Schindler Subject: [Bearhawk] Re: Scotchbrite Another thing the old pro's used to do was to dip their rivets in Zinc Chromate before they bucked them. It gave real good corrosion proofing and after it dried, if you had to drill the rivet out, the chromate would hold it and keep it from spinning. Im not an old pro Im just old. +++ #2434 From: Tim Anderson Subject: Rivet Gun questions I purchased a used Chicago Pneu. rivet gun from The Yard. It arrived with ZERO instructions on it's operation. I gathered from one brief source that a few drops of air tool oil (I assume dropping into the air source inlet) each time is required. I have no clue as to what pressure to use. I purchased a regulator for the inlet hose fitting, but I can also regulate the presure at the tank. I would appreciate Any guidance. +++ #2435 From: Hedges, Bill Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Rivet Gun questions I work in a repair station, and our "shop air" is regulated at 80 psi. All our calibrated pneumatic tools are calibrated at 80 psi operating pressure. Thats our shop, you may find other shops using different pressures, like anything, use what you feel comfortable with. +++ #2436 From: Russ Erb Subject: [Bearhawk] Rivet Gun questions I run mine at 90 psi, which is what I've seen for every other one. The ball valve "regulators" sold to be used at the inlet are not true regulators, but merely a constriction to the flow. They only drop pressure when there is air flowing through them. When the air is static (gun not in use) the pressure builds up to line pressure. Recommend you use a real regulator at the source end of the hose to keep the pressure down to 90 psi. You can use the ball valve to further drop the pressure as necessary. +++ #2440 mailstuff Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Rivet Gun questions I work as a sheetmetal structures manager at a major airline. I have done lots of sheetmetal with a lot of different rivet guns. Set your regulator coming out of the tank of the compressor at 100 psi or better especially if you are using a lot of hose. Use the regulator on the inlet of the gun to adjust for the maximum hit you want to use. Do this by using scrap of like thickness and shoot some rivets. Your gun is set correctly when a 2-3 second full open burst sets the rivet properly. This way you can get on the rivet slow and then open the gun wide open for a short but comfortable burst. Think of it as rolling on the throttle. Trigger control is the key to good rivets. If the gun you bought does not have a trigger you can slowly squeeze and vary the hit rate on, throw it away. A gun that comes on suddenly at full throttle will cause you to scrap and dent more parts than you will want to. Sometimes rebuilt guns will not pack the punch of a new one, so be careful where you get it at. As far as oiling goes, I do not oil my rivet guns at all. We have a guy that does nothing but rebuild all of our pneumatic tools and he swears that the guns that are never oiled last alot longer. Drills need to be oiled about every couple of hours of continuous use, but oil gums up the trigger mechanism and action of rivet guns. I have a gun that hasn't been oiled for three years and has been used daily for that time and works like the day the company gave it to me. I own a lot of rivet guns, and I have to say for the money, US Industrial Tools makes a great gun. The trigger is very controllable and they last forever. Don't buy a recoiless one. I have one and they tend to jam up after awhile. I recommend the 3x from US Industrial Tools for the Bearhawk. It will do everything well. I think they sold for $200 at Oshkosh last year. The secret for doing the thick parts of the spar is a heavy bar. Find a scrap section of steel I-beam, and cut off about a foot of it. Sand the surface you are going to use with 80 grit wheels on a 90 degree die grinder and then polish with a blue scotch brite wheel. This is smooth enough to buck against. E-mail me if you have any sheetmetal questions or are wondering about purchasing any special sheetmetal tools. Chances are I have bought one and can tell you if it is worth the money. Some quick pointers: -Always use two people for riveting until you are very comfortable with the process. -Buck tails on rivets do not have to be perfect. I have seen many terrible ones that are 30 years old with 90,000 flight hours on them that are holding tight. Chances are you will do more damage replacing the rivet than leaving the not-so-great one in. Just don't lay them over like a nail or put a deep crease on the head or tail. Under squashed and over squashed is no big deal...just don't do every rivet like that. -Do the spar first. Bigger rivets in thick material are more forgiving than -3 and -4 flush rivets on a skin. -Weight lifting or cycling fingerless gloves with padded palms are great for bucking. -Women can rivet and buck just as well or better than men. Just let the wife get comfortable on scrap first. Also she won't be as nervous about shooting the rivets in the airplane because she doesn't know how long it will take to remake the part. -Think 3 dimensional assembly in your head before installing rivets. Do the ones that will be the hardest to get at first and work out from there. -Build yourself a tool tote with a pull out drawer in the bottom as a usable practice piece for practicing bending and riveting metal. Space all rivets about an inch apart on the tote and use both flush and button head -4 rivets. (.032 should be thick enough) -Don't push it ... have fun... Remeber once it is riveted, it is a completed aircraft part! +++ #2456 From: Bill Cox Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Rivet Gun questions I've been down the coast the past week fishing. A few drops of oil for each 8 hours of operation is plenty. If you add too much it will mist out the exhaust and make a mess. Won't hurt the tool. In most large shops they use an inline oiler ( looks similar to a water seperator) so they don't have to fool with daily oiling. If you do that those hoses should be marked some way so they don't get used for painting. They will be contaminated with oil. It doesn't take much pressure for the 3/32 rivets. Of course more for the larger sizes. I keep my compressor set at 100 pounds and regulate every thing at the tool or the water seperator. I know this will sound evasive, but I would start out at low pressure, try hitting against a wood block. When you think you are at a starting place practice on scrap. Ideally you should drive the rivet in about 5 or 6 hits. When you drive a long time at low pressure the rivet work hardens and you often have a rivet peened on the end instead of expanded. I think 10 to 12 hits is probably about max. If the rivet is properly driven when you drill the head off the rivet will have to be driven out due to the expansion along its shank. +++ #2457 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Rivet Gun questions The inline oilers are great. I use a clear braded hose with small quick disconnect fittings for air tools which use the inline oiler. One of the tool dealers at Sun & Fun sold the fittings. Makes for a very nice LIGHTWEIGHT low maintenance setup. I second the need to keep your hoses separated . . . Also, I purchased the following rivet trays from the yard. I separate out different lenghts in each compartment and have a different tray for 3, 4, and 5's. They are fantastic. Someone at Sun & Fun also sold these trays and they sold REALLY fast! +++ #2471 From: Tim Anderson Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Rivet Gun questions So, how was fishing? You'll see from my other post that I had some minor frustartions over the weekend. I bought a small cheap oiler that I put at the gun end of the hose. The seal leaked and dripped oil everywhere. You get what you pay for. I'm going to save your riveting post to my bearhawk folder. I haven't practaced any with the new (used) gun. I did buy a round barbell shaped bucking bar (5 pound) for those heavy rivets. The one source book I read stated 5/16 rivets should use a 3 - 4 lb bucking bar. I have a lighter bar for the other lighter rivets. +++ #2486 From: Russ Erb Subject: [Bearhawk] Rivit gun and Sizes of rivits? > I have a Brand new 2X that I can return to the supplier and was > wondering what size of gun I really need? What are the all the rivet > sizes that I am going to need Send it back and get a 3X. A 2X would probably be okay on -3 rivets, marginal on -4 rivets, and useless on -5 rivets. It hits light enough that you run the risk of work hardening the larger rivets. A 3X can be adjusted (air pressure) to work everything from -3 to -5, although the -5 takes everything the gun has. I only have a 3X and have driven -3 through -5 successfully. That covers all of the rivets in the airplane except for 3/16 (-6) rivets in the strut ends on the original plans. I don't know what is required on the new strut design with the Bob-supplied strut material. There are so few -6 rivets that you should be able to borrow or rent something to drive those if it becomes an issue. +++ #2489 From: mailstuff Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Rivit gun and Sizes of rivits? Most of the rivits are threes and fours. Number five rivits are on the spar. A 3x gun will do it all. A 2x gun works great on 3's and short 4's, but will usually cold work a -5 rivit before it is fully bucked. If you feel comfortable with the 2x, use it. Let me know when you have the spar ready to shoot and i'll loan you a 4x gun. Sorry to hear about Stoddard-Hamilton, I would have never thunk it! +++ #2491 From: Russ Erb Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Short-Winged bearhawk Club I agree that the fan rivet spacer is well worth the money. I use mine frequently. However, I must differ with Forrest on one point. The instructions that came with it said do NOT use it as a drill guide. Besides the inevitable enlarging of the holes, you'll end up with a non-straight line of rivets. The technique is to draw a line, mark the locations with the tool, then drill on the line where the marks are. If you do this you will see that the holes in the spacer don't stay perfectly lined up but form a slight arc when the tool is expanded. I haven't worked out the geometry as to why yet. Clecoing the end points in does work very nicely if you can do it. +++ #2851 From: Mike Eldredge Subject: Basic riveting Let me see if I have the basic concept of riveting straight. You might think this is a no-brainer, but part of it is counter-intuitive. As I understand it: the rivet set which will make contact with the manufactured head of the rivet goes into the rivet gun. the rivet is placed through the holes drilled/prepared for it, and the rivet gun is pressed up against the manufactured head of the rivet. the bucking bar is placed against what will become the shop head of the rivet on the other side of the workpiece the rivet gun is fired, pushing against the manufactured head of the rivet, which pushes the rivet into the bucking bar at the other end, causing it to expand in the hole and create the shop head against the bucking bar. What seems counter-intuitive to me is that the rivet gun is placed against the manufactured head which is already flush against the work piece, so that when the gun is fired, the force not only goes against the rivet, but also against the work piece itself. How is it that the work piece is not damaged? I presume that the work piece must be able to move/flex somewhat during riveting to absorb some of the shock from the rivet gun. This is what I understand back riveting to be: the rivet is placed through the work piece, and the bucking bar is placed against the manufactured head the rivet gun (with a flush/flat rivet set) is placed against the protruding shank of the rivet and fired to upset the rivet and form the shop head. This method seems more intuitive to me, since the rivet itself is taking the bulk of the force from the hits before the force has a chance to get to the work piece. Thanks for the feedback. I'm learning as I go. +++ #2853 From: Russ Erb Subject: [Bearhawk] Basic riveting Mike--you're right on track. For normal riveting, the piece will move sufficiently for the force to be transferred to the bucking bar. It only has to move a few thousandths of an inch, which is basically just a vibration. The only time I have found this to be a problem is when driving long rivets through heavy material, such as the -4 rivets at the splice plate of the main spar. In this case the spar material can act as a bucking bar with the result being deformation of the manufactured head instead of the shop head. I gave a detailed explanation of my experiences with this several years ago--you can find it in the archives on the Bearhawk CD. Avery makes a tool (#4500, $29) that is like a bucking bar that will accept squeezer sets and let you back drive universal head rivets. I recommend this for the -4 rivets at the spar splice plate. The -5 rivets in the spar caps are not a problem for normal riveting. Yes, back riveting seems more intuitive, but can be more difficult. For a well formed shop head, the device forming the shop head must not be allowed to move side to side or it will encourage the rivet to lay over. It is fairly easy (with practice) to keep a bucking bar aligned. However, with back riveting, the hammering action of the gun encourages the set to bounce from side to side. I have found that successful back riveting takes at least three hands--one (or two) to hold the bucking bar in position, one to operate the rivet gun, and (this is the important one) one to hold onto the rivet set to keep it from wandering. On the other hand, I have been very successful at normal riveting with two hands. For universal rivets, the cup keeps the set in place (don't let it bounce or release pressure before the hammering stops--it gets VERY ugly if you do (and I have)), and the other hand holds the bucking bar. For flush rivets, I highly recommend the swivel set from Avery (#1047, $34). The swivel reduces smiley faces (unwanted dents caused by the rivet set) by not insisting on perfect alignment (strive for at least near-perfect or it will move while driving), and the rubber guard helps keep it in place. We used this set on my first wing, normal driving most of the rivets (we seemed to get better results that way), and the skin is just a smooth as if we had back-riveted. Sometimes, normal riveting is your only option, as when closing up the nose section of the wing. You can get a bucking bar in there, but you can't get the rivet gun in there. +++ #2854 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Basic riveting I took the weekend sheet metal class from what is now Alexander Sportair a few years back. The guy teaching the class (Bob Vineyard) has been around a million years and used to be a mechanic's examiner. The class was invaluable for learning a bunch about sheet metal and riveting, as well as some of the 'old timers' tricks. I also purchased a book entitled "Aircraft Sheet Metal", which for the $15 covers a pile of this stuff also. Technically though - When you buck a rivet, the shank of the rivet is being compressed lengthwise. The metal has to go somewhere, so it increases in diameter. This forces the rivet to fill the holes in the work pieces (kinda like the top of a Thermos bottle) as well as forming the shop head. When bucking from the manufactured head side, the impact does deflect the top work piece a little during the instant of the impact. In my quite limited experience this deflection doesn't create noticable permanent damage when done properly; make sure the bucking bar and set are correct for the job. This method helps to hold the manufactured head against the top work piece, and also holds the work pieces together, so when the rivet expands in the hole, the rivet can't 'ooze out' from under the manufactured head or between the two pieces. This 'sandwiching effect' doesn't happen when back riveting; the work pieces are not forced together and the manufactured head is forced away from the top work piece and into the bucking bar. This raises the risk of a bad rivet joint. Get some scrap pieces and rivets similar to those you plan on using and try it all. Do it the right ways and the wrong ways and see what you think of your results. Examine your joints including cutting and grinding them open, and see what works. ... and PLEASE deburr all of your holes. +++ #2857 From: Ron Morrison Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Basic riveting EAA Chapter 1000 has Mil Spec. MIL-R-47196A on their web site plus lots of other useful info. Check under "Useful Reference Material" at www.eaa1000.av.org/ +++ #2862 From: mailstuff Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Basic riveting Vibrations from the rivet gun are what upsets the rivet tail. It doesn't matter which end they are introduced. The manufactured head is captured so that it is not misformed during the riveting process. Some flush head rivets have extra material slightly domed in the middle. This is used to ensure that the countersink,dimple is completely full. If the rivet sits flush prior to bucking and is slightly high after bucking, with no gap around the head, it is a good rivet. You will need to shave it down though to make it flush. All it means is that there was nowhere for the extra material to go (good fitting dimple/countersink.) If you are going to back rivet, get a backset. It is real easy to slip off a bucktail and ruin the metal or other bucktails around it. Riveting just takes a little practice, you'll get plenty. Keep in mind, rivets can look pretty bad and still be structurally sound. Have fun! +++ #3391 Subject: [Bearhawk] To all PostWingSkinners (Sets) From: Russ Erb > I'm getting around to buying rivet sets, and would just as soon > get 'em all out of the way up front. Would anyone be kind enough > to post a list of rivet sets you found useful in putting your wing > together? I'd hate to buy any that I don't have to, and worse > yet, I certainly wouldn't want to be rolling along in the shop at > 0400 and need a special set to do a job. Here's what I remember using so far. Details from Avery: Part # Size Price Straight rivet sets for AN470 4703 3/32" $7.50 4704 1/8" $7.50 4705 5/16" $7.50 Single offset rivet sets for AN470 4708 3/32" $11.00 4710 1/8" $11.00 Double offset rivet sets for AN470 4719 3/32" $16.00 4720 1/8" $16.00 4721 5/16" $16.00 Flush Swivel Rivet Set 1047 $34.00 (not cheap but well worth it) Back Riveting Rivet Set 1048 $17.50 Extra Long Back Riveting Set 4580 $25.00 Bucking Bar 635 3 lbs $25.00 Make one like shown in Bear-Tracks Dimpling/Riveting Block Set 4500 $29.00 Squeezer Sets 6006 Combo Pack $35.00 1621 1/8" Flat $6.00 (extra) 1608 1/8" Cupped $7.00 (modified) +++ #4023 From: Russ Erb Subject: Riveting Cluebag Rediscovered! I was helping a friend rivet together his Cessna 310 today (one of those take it totally apart, make new parts, and reassemble projects). While there, I found a copy of a Tony Bingelis article "Rivet Gun Notes" from the January 1988 Sport Aviation. That's only 12 years ago. A cursory glance through the article revealed several little gems of knowledge that nobody had ever told me, that I had to learn the hard way. It struck me that this was an article that all of you riveting newbes and wannabes need to read. Remember, it's quicker to learn from someone else's experience that to figure it out yourself. Of course, for some reason Tony decided not to include this critical information in any of his books. Don't ask me why. If you have access to a copy of the January 1988 Sport Aviation, turn to page 31 and make yourself a copy. I will be including this article on all future Bearhawk CDs, making them Version 2.01. If you have already ordered a BHCDV2 or you don't have access to the magazine and are too cheap to spend $20 to order a CD, then e-mail me directly (erbman@c...) and I will e-mail you the HTML file and associated graphics (316KB). +++ #4033 From: Russ Erb Subject: Re: Riveting Gluebag Rediscovered! > Russ, interesting, how about uploading a copy to our files > area..... Oh, sure, Tim...always with the reasonable, obvious ideas! I, of course, totally forgot about that option. I didn't want to post it on a web side because of possible copyright issues, but this option is as reasonable as my e-mailing it out to everyone. Note to all B'Hawkers: The offer to e-mail said article has been rescinded. Go to the Bearhawk e-groups site (http://www.egroups.com/files/bearhawk/) and download riveting.zip from the files section. +++ #5435 From: Rob Gaddy zipppydoggg@y... Subject: 2X versus 3X I just finished re-reading the information on Russ's CD concerning riviting, as well as the other information I can find. Question for the group,especially persons that have/are about to finish their wings: would a 2X or a 3X gun be better? I have access (borrow) a 4X for the spars. I know that a 3X will do all the other work, but will a 2X also do all the work? I was thinking that the 2X would be a little easier to handle. I plan to buy new, except if someone has a good deal. Opinions? +++ #5437 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] 2X versus 3X 3X will do everything you need, from -3 to -5 rivets. It's all I've used. 2X would work on -3, but I don't know about -4. With the 3X, on small rivets (-3), back off the pressure you feed it (30 to 40 psi). For -5 rivets, use full 90 psi and pull the trigger all the way and hang on. This is near the limit of the guns capacity. Longer rivets require more impact than shorter ones. Multiple guns give you choices, but if you want to stick with one, get a 3X. +++ #5441 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] 2X versus 3X After hemming and hawing for a couple years prior, I went to the Sun 'n Fun about 5 years ago with a shopping list of riveting tools. It turns out, for my purposes, U.S. Air Tool had a kit all packaged up for the RV guys that contained almost all the things on my list. Included was a drill, 3x gun (with sets), manual squeezer, bucking bars, some dimpling and countersinking stuff, and a lot of little onesies and twosies tools. And a bazillion clecos of assorted popular sizes (which will never be enough, no matter how many you have). When the guy saw I was in a serious buying mood, he started throwing in extras, too. If you don't have any of these tools already, I found it a convenient, albeit not cheap, way to get equipped in a hurry. +++ #6022 From: snorttheoneandonly@y... Subject: riveting url I found an interesting page on riveting in case it might be of interest to beginning builders: http://www.flash.net/~gila/rivet_spec/rivet_a.htm John Walsh +++ #6023 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] riveting url Said Mil Spec is also on the Bearhawk CD. Russ Erb +++ #7259 Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:16:51 -0400 From: "Chris Vuxton" christopher.vuxton@ Subject: Rivet Squeezer I have the opportunity to get a CP-214 rivet squeezer at a good price. The question is...capacity. Not having seen the plans yet, CP lists the 214 as having a 1/16" steel and 3/32" aluminum rivet capacity. Is this enough? Chris >>> 2mar02 #7686-9153 +++ #7943 From: "Mike Carriere" Subject: forming blocks Awhile ago you asked for sample of forming blocks, One of our people took these pictures of our brake press (500 ton) pressing our left and right end ribs into a sheet of soft rubber. Notice all holes get flared at once. Our shop works with very hard steel 400 -500 Brinnel and our waste makes the best bucking bars you could ask for. We have tons of this material that goes to scrap if any one needs to make special bars let me know -all it will cost is the freight. Michael Carriere 463 469 +++ #8018 From: t18cox@f... Subject: Re: steel for bucking bars > I've been trying to locate where I saw the bucking bar Bob > reccomends for the BH and as soon as I locate it I will e-mail > you. The drawing is in the condensed 1995 newsletters. Bill Cox #303 +++ #8377 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Avdel rivets > As a note for your' personal Archives.....Here's contact info > for Avdel structural pop rivets Re; Avdel/Avex rivets Before anyone assumes these rivets are direct replacements for regular AN rivets, they are not. The structure must be designed around them. My references say an 1/8" Avdel is good for 165 pounds in shear while an AN-4 is 350 # plus. Just an FYI. bd +++ #8478 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Cleco brands? I've been scanning ebay, looking to pick up some used tools. I see lots of 'clecos' that seem to get bid up to unreasonable prices. I thought I'd heard around 50 cents each for used clecos was reasonable, but I see people starting auctions at 50 cents to a buck a piece -- and who knows where they'll end... Avery ( www.averytools.com) asks about 39 cents, new, for theirs. They're not 'Cleco' brand, but instead 'Monogram'. Are Avery's good enough for the job? I'm building one airplane, not going into the repair business... (Although I could see building another when the first is finished!) What's a reasonable number of the different sizes to accumulate? In the RV builders kit they include 325 @ 3/32", 175 @ 1/8" and 2 @ 5/32". Also, are the 'wing-nut drawn' ones useful? Are there many places you can't get the pliers into? Benton 26dec01 +++ #8481 From: "Derrick Howard" ubject: Re: [Bearhawk] Cleco brands? > Also, are the 'wing-nut drawn' ones useful? Are there many > places you can't get the pliers into? When you do your spars, they will be invaluable, with a 1/2" of material, a spring loaded cleco will not hold. Drill everything .040 & use the draw clecos when possible Derrick Howard #192 +++ #8487 From: shell Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Cleco brands? There are clecos and then there are clecos. Do not, under any circumstances, shop for the cheapest that you can buy. I trust Avery - if he sells it he stands behind it - and he sells good products. Shelly - 311 +++ #8489 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Cleco brands? There is no reason whatsoever to pay more for clecos than you would pay through established suppliers such as Avery, Wicks, or Aircraft Spruce. These outfits all have excellent return policies if you're not satisfied. I've seen vendors at flea markets who are selling clecos at inflated prices--they are successful because their customers have no clue what the going rate for new clecos is. On cleco brands: There are a bunch of them--most of mine are "Kwik-lok" which is what Avery was selling at the time. There is also "Cleco" and you mentioned "Monogram". There may be others--I suspect Avery sells whichever vendor gives them the best deal at the time. I've seen buckets of clecos of different brands all mixed together, and unless you look closely, you wouldn't know. They all work alike anyway. Here's what The Bob recommended in the Summer 1995 Bear-Tracks: 3/32" 200 pieces 1/8" 200 pieces 5/32" 50 pieces 3/16" 10 pieces That's what I bought, which worked fine until I got to the wing assembly. At that point I found I was way behind on the 3/32" clecos. I think I ended up with about 700 total of the silver ones, and could have used a few more. The point of the wing nut clecos is not that you can't get the pliers in, but they have a longer reach and can pull tighter than the spring loaded clecos. I bought 4 each of the 3/32 and 1/8 wing nut clecos and they have been moderately useful here and there, mostly for pulling pieces together. I also bought 10 of the long nosed cleco clamps, which have been very useful here and there, especially for holding fish line stretched to lay out rivet positions on the wing skin. Don't use them for welding clamps--the arms are aluminum and will melt (guess how I figured that out!) The spring loaded clecos typically have a grip range of about 1/4". On the main wing spar, whenever the capstrips were more than two thick, I used #6 machine screws, washers, and nuts to hold everything together. Far cheaper wing nut clecos in sufficient quantity to do the spar. One other way to get clecos on the cheap: I bought about 200 from a friend who had just finished an RV-6A and had no intent to build another airplane. Russ Erb +++ #8490 From: "Montee, Dan L." Subject: RE: Cleco brands? The last couple of years clecos have been selling for $.25 ea at Air Venture. Dan Montee # 415 >>> 4sep02 #9154-11297 +++ #9416 From: "gjvf" "jim" Subject: Clecos If anybody needs clecos they are on sale from U.S. Industrial Tool & Supply. This month's Trade-a-Plane add has them for $0.28 each - any size, any quantity. Their catalog lists them for $1.00 each or $0.285 if you buy 500. I ordered enough to fill out my collection Monday and they were here today. The add says go to thier web site and click on specials to get these prices but when I did that the price was $0.33 ea. I called and they gave me the TAP price. Their rivet spacing fan is also on sale for $29 as well as cleco pliers for $4.50. Other stuff in the sale doesn't seem so good, you can do better at Wicks. If you don't get TAP the U.S. Tool phone number is 1-800-521-4800. +++ #9417 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Clecos Way before Bearhawk dreams, I went to the Sun 'n Fun looking for riveting tools to do maintenance on an old rec vehicle. US Air Tool had a kit in a toolbox put together for RV-6 builders that had 90% of my wish list in it. When their rep saw I was serious, he threw in the rest, and then some. 3x gun, drill, bucking bars, microstop countersink, gobs of Clecos, ... If you ain't got nuthin' of this kind of tooling, this was a great way to go for me and it saved me some money. ...that's not to say I might not buy more clecos. +++ #9420 From: Tim Subject: Re: Tools/Clecos Another good supplier and recommended by a friend who has built several RV's, one Harmon Rocket and presently is being paid in assembling an RV4 kit, states that the quality of the Cleveland tools is higher than US Tool, but so is the Cleveland cost. http://www.cleavelandtool.com/ I own the US tool TP-83 kit, (bought in the 80's) lot's of cleco's some air tools, rivet hole duplicators chip chasers etc and am happy with US Tool.....On the other hand I have seen the high quality of the Cleveland line and like it.... Especially their deep throat "C" frame table top riviter, no alignment needed use right out of the box http://www.cleavelandtool.com/ +++ #9438 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Clecos @ 16c > If anybody needs clecos they are on sale from U.S. Industrial Tool & > Supply. This month's Trade-a-Plane add has them for $0.28 each... Has anyone done business with this company? in New Boston, MI? This page shows clecos at 16 cents in 500s -- These are shown as Monogram-brand, which is the same make as Avery was/is selling. If no one has anything bad to say about the company, is anyone interested in splitting a sack of either the 3/32" or 1/8" ones? I'd even eat a share of the second leg postage (surface; sorry, offer not valid in all areas; call before midnight tonight) or maybe throw in the pliers. Bob recommends 300 of 3/32", 200 of 1/8", 50 of 5/32" and 10 of 3/16". +++ #9439 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Clecos @ 16c > Bob recommends 300 of 3/32", 200 of 1/8", 50 of 5/32" and 10 of 3/16". Erbman recommends you keep the whole bag of 500 3/32" for yourself. I ended up with about 700 and could have used a few more. Then again, "The Bob" would probably just say I used too many of them. I couldn't imagine assembling a wing with only 300 3/32" clecos. That may seem like plenty, but remember there are probably over 1000 rivets in the top skins alone. +++ #9440 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: re: Clecos @ 16c > Erbman recommends you keep the whole bag of 500 3/32" for yourself. I remembered you'd said you finished with 700, and could have used more. I figured you musta' pinned *both* wings together before replacing clecos with rivets. Hmmm...anyone wanna split a bag of the 1/8" units? +++ #9442 From: shell "Shelly" Subject: Re: Clecos @ 16c Cheap clecos can be a poor way to save money. When they loosen and don't have full grab, you have to stop and jerk them out and get another one, and you might come up with 5 or 6 bad ones in a row and before you know it, you miss one of the bad ones and you end up with a rivet that you have to drill out. I've used a ton of them from different sources and the best have come from Avery. +++ #9443 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: re: Clecos @ 16c Nope--that was one wing at a time. +++ #9452 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Re: Clecos @ 16c I think you'll find that Avery sells whatever good quality "clecos" that it can get at a good price. Case in point--when I bought clecos (or is it clecoes?) from them years ago, they were Kwiklok brand. Whatever they are, Avery will stand behind them. +++ #9626 From: "Greco, Bob" Subject: RE: Lengths for rivets Rivet length is computed as follows; thickness of total stack of material to be riveted + 1 1/2 X Dia. of the rivet(you may need to add a little extra length if the total stack is greater than 10 X the rivet diameter). example; riveting the following thicknesses together .032 + .040 + .063 = .135 total material thickness. When using 1/8 Dia rivet, rivet length should be .135 + .125 +.067 = .327 long. This is slightly longer than a 4-5 so you should use a 4-5.5 rivet. If you are using brazier head rivets the correct callout would be MS20470AD 4-5.5 for the rivet to use on this material stack. When the rivet is correctly installed, measure the bucked end of the rivet. It should be 1/2 X the original rivet diameter high and 1 1/2 X X the original diameter wide. Look at the FAA Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B/2A for correct riveting practices. It is the A&P "Bible" and will answer most of the "how to do it correctly" questions that I have seen posted here. It is available from many sources including the EAA. Correct rivet length is one of the things that I have found wrong with many of the kit airplanes I have inspected as an A&P and a Tech Counselor. Some of them are so bad that there is hardly any rivet showing on the bucked end. If the rivet is not correctly installed so as to fill the hole and clamp the joint it cannot take the load that it was designed to take. Rivets are designed to load in shear and can only do so when installed correctly. +++ #9662 From: "Pat Fagan" pfflyerz@c... Subject: Re: Rivet lengths required I went that route originally, calculating the ideal rivet length and only buying what I thought I would need. By the time I finished, I ended up with every length there is in #3 and #4 rivets. Even then, I had to trim a lot of them by hand. Rivets are cheap enough that it is much simpler to have every possibility on hand so you can select what you need at the time. Besides, once you have assembled something with rivets, you realize what a great way it is to build things and end up using them on all sorts of home repair projects. I'ld buy 1/4 pound of everything, then buy a full pound of the main ones once you determine what those are. I did post a list of all the rivet lengths I used, some time ago. It should be in the archives somewhere. +++ #9705 From: "Chris Vuxton" Subject: Riveting Info This is a link to an HTML version of MIL-R-47196A "Rivets, Buck Type, Preparation for and Installation of" http://www.flash.net/~gila/rivet_spec/rivet_a.htm Seems to answer most of my questions. +++ #9769 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Riveting Info Which can also be found on your Bearhawk CD at /47196a/rivet_a.htm You can also get to it from the Reference Material page. +++ #10269 From: "drewschumann" Subject: Gotta crow...just a little. While everyone is probably assuming I'm just beating my gums about angular momentum and whatnot...I bin bildin a barhock! I have all the right wing nosepieces cut out and formed, and am currently putting in stiffener angles. Every time I rivet, especially with dash-3s, I feel a Zen moment. The moment the rivet flows into a shop head until it makes that tinny sound that says, "one more strike, and I'm overdriven" I feel an immense sense of inner piece. It's even better when I'm working on the school shop's big steel table. I buck the shop heads right into the table surface, sight unseen. For some odd reason, when I can't see the shop head being formed, I buck better rivets! Just concentrate on holding the work parallel to the surface and listen for the rivet to say it's bucked. I'm holding off on putting the .032 angle on the nose-pieces until I see how long each one needs to be to make them even. It seemed the right thing to do. Is there any reason I can't? Thanks for putting up with my meandering. Drew +++ #10856 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Digest Number 859 I don't know if this might be helpful, but it has worked well for me. When I first started practising driving rivets I was just cutting them to length with a pair of side cutting pliers as I had seen the "old hands" in the hangar do it. My results were less than acceptable. I got the idea to use an old inexpensive pair of wire crimpers that had the holes for shearing screws to length. One of the screw holes was close to the diameter of the rivets I was using and it worked well. The only caution is to insert the rivet from the back side so that the rivet body doesn't get marked up by the tapped threads of the tool...the sheared off piece gets the serrations. At first I just marked the length to cut on the rivet, but later I used washers on the rivet shank to set the lengths. I got nice square ends with no distortion of the diameter of the rivet. My cheap imitation rivet cutting tool work almost as well as the fancy tool later borrowed from the FBO. +++ #10857 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Digest Number 859 Very clever, Bruce. The key is the sheared end must be flat, or else it will be very difficult to drive (upset) properly. >>> 20may03 #11298-18250 #11918 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Spar Riveter I've been designing a fixture for riveting the wing spars in my hydraulic press, and have reached the point where all that is left is to build the thing and test it out. Since I am not able to do either at this time, I thought I would pass the drawing along to the group in order to solicit comments and possible suggestions for improvement. I only know enough about CAD to be slightly dangerous, so bear that in mind while viewing them. They were drawn and converted to DXF in an old version of Autocad LT which hopefully won't cause any viewing problems. The dxf and original dwg files are available on my site at: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/rriveter.dwg and http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/rriveter.dxf The purpose of the whole exercise is to provide a precise means of setting the rivets in the wing spars. I've got nothing against rivet guns, but my thought is that using this fixture will minimize the chance of messing up the spars, either from (mis)driving the rivets or removing the bad ones. It probably wouldn't be worthwhile except I already have a hydraulic press that I built a while ago. The main feature of the riveter is the adjustable depth stop, and I welcome suggestions to simplify and otherwise improve it. -- Del Rawlins +++ #11919 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Spar Riveter Del--this looks similar to an idea I tried using a hydraulic jack (you can see part of it on the BHCD V3 in the section about liberating seat rails for my seats). It suffered from one major problem that I'm not sure you have adequately planned for. Two things are required for successfully squeezing rivets: 1. Sufficient force 2. Good lateral support #1 is obvious. Without #2, the rivet set can move to one side as the force is applied. When it does, the rivet bends over instead of smooshing. Just like hitting a nail makes it bend over. (That's what mine did and why I abandoned the idea) My suggestion would be to make everything as rigid as possible, minimize the length of the plunger, and minimize the opening for the spar. The more you can ensure that the moving set cannot move any direction (under great force) other than up and down, the better it will work. Also make sure that you won't have interference from any part of the spar. Plus you need a plan to support the spar along its full length so that it won't have a bend in it as you work it. Also consider that if you follow my method (detailed on the CD), you will be bouncing back and forth from one end of the spar to the other. Have a set up that allows moving it back and forth easily. Russ Erb +++ #11921 From: "Vuxton, Christopher" Subject: RE: Spar Riveter Instead of using a hydraulic jack I was thinking about using a 1, 2, or 3 ton press. I figured you could drill the ram to accept the sets. Might be easier to use. Seems I saw such a setup but can't remember where. It might have been a Zenith builder's site. Chris +++ #11923 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: Spar Riveter > Two things are required for successfully squeezing rivets: > > 1. Sufficient force > 2. Good lateral support > > #1 is obvious. Without #2, the rivet set can move to one side as > the force is applied. When it does, the rivet bends over instead of > smooshing. Just like hitting a nail makes it bend over. (That's > what mine did and why I abandoned the idea) My press develops 10 tons of force, while the tandem pneumatic squeezer in the Avery catalog (that can set 3/16 rivets) is claimed to develop 6000 pounds of squeezing force, so I think I have #1 covered. With that amount of overkill, one of my bigger concerns is that as the depth stop bottoms, the upper tube (the 2x3 one) may flex, allowing the rivet to be over-driven. If that turns out to be a problem I'll probably just weld steel plate to the side of it until it doesn't do that anymore. I could go with a deeper tube but it would make the tool taller, which would lower the working height of the spar in use, and I'd be continually bending over to work on it. in addition to providing a positive depth stop, #2 is a main reason I'm going to (eventually) build the tool. The press itself has a certain amount of slop built in as a function of its design, which allows it to work without binding up. If I can build it square and true, and get a good fit between the plunger and the tube it rides in, then hopefully lateral force won't be a big issue. > My suggestion would be to make everything as rigid as possible, > minimize the length of the plunger, and minimize the opening for the > spar. The more you can ensure that the moving set cannot move any > direction (under great force) other than up and down, the better it > will work. Other than the upper horizontal tube possibly not being rigid enough, the other possible weak point as I see it is the bolt I'm planning to use to adjust the squeeze depth. The frame and ram (1" thick) can be perfectly square and rigid, but if that 5/16" bolt deflects at all, it may moosh (a technical term) the rivet heads over to one side. I'll probably use a grade 8 bolt to minimize the chance of that happening. This design allows me to use an adjustable set holder from Avery that is used in their hand squeezers, and provides adequate clearance between the spar web flange and the ram. It also provides easier adjustment than my other idea, which was to simply drill a 3/16" hole in the bottom of the ram for the set, and make some kind of jam nut arrangement at the top of the ram to adjust the squeeze depth. I can always revert to that by making another ram if the bolt idea doesn't work out. Another benefit of the bolt idea, is that I can vary its length to provide a coarse depth adjustment, and fine tune with the threaded set holder. > Also make sure that you won't have interference from any part of the > spar. Plus you need a plan to support the spar along its full > length so that it won't have a bend in it as you work it. Also > consider that if you follow my method (detailed on the CD), you will > be bouncing back and forth from one end of the spar to the other. > Have a set up that allows moving it back and forth easily. I was thinking that either a special long table of the required height could be built. If one were really clever (and lucky) it might be usable with the builder's drill press to drill all the holes in the spar caps/webs as well. Alternately, some of those roller stands that woodworkers use with a power miter saw might be a quick way to move the spar using the recommended "skip riveting" technique. -- Del Rawlins +++ #11934 From: "newbegin" Subject: Re: Spar Riveter You should use your rivet gun on the spar, it is easy to set it up and clamp it on edge. There are going to be a lot of places to rivet that are difficult and experience on the spars will help and give confidence. To me, riveting was easy to learn and do. Drilling out rivets is not that bad. I have punches that go into my rivet gun that drives out the rivet after drilling the rivet head. The first things I riveted were the angle's on the ribs. The trick is to set the air press. for diff. size rivets. Jim #284 +++ #11939 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: RE: Spar Riveter On the V-6 STOL the plans call for extending the existing spar approximately 4 feet with the addition of a built up piece similar to the construction of the Bearhawk spar. One of the builders made a setup using an old surplus CHEAP gear type press. He could not exert enough pressure on the pinion handle to upset the rivets properly. He developed a technique of pressing the ram down firmly against the rivet with the handle then striking the top of the rack(ram) with a heavy hammer. One blow and each rivet was set. Total expenditure for the press was $20. Whacking the top of the ram with a hammer was hard on the press but for $20 one could throw it away after the job. He never bought a rivet gun or compressor. Bruce A. Frank +++ #11941 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Spar Riveter Tony Bingelis described this same technique in the May 1993 Sport Aviation. His main point for this method was that the 3X rivet gun that most of us have is too small to upset (or even piss off) the 3/8" rivets in the RV spar. While it should work just as well for Bearhawk spars, the biggest rivets we have are 5/32", for which the 3X gun is adequate. I used the rivet gun on my spars, but these other methods appear to be just a valid. Russ Erb +++ #11944 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: Spar Riveter > While it should work just as well for Bearhawk spars, the biggest > rivets we have are 5/32", for which the 3X gun is adequate. I used > the rivet gun on my spars, but these other methods appear to be just > a valid. I think the point that we don't all have to do it the same way to get the same result is valid and has been made here in the past. I probably wouldn't even bother with the spar riveting fixture, except I already have a good hydraulic press and the effort involved in making the fixture is no big deal; a few hours at most (I can get a friend to make the ram on a lathe). If it works, I shouldn't have any bad rivets to remove, and the time savings may even offset the time spent building the fixture. The real benefit will be the reduced likelihood of messing up the spars, and having to make all or part of them over again. Like I said, I've got nothing against riveting with a gun and I will get lots of experience with that anyway. To make an analogy, using the gun for everything works fine, but in some cases it is like taking an offhand shot at game when a perfectly good rest (a tree, rock, or whatever) is available. There are plenty of variables in this whole homebuilding game, but I am going to control those that I can. -- Del Rawlins +++ #11945 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Spar Riveter A comment on spar riveting: we use guns because it takes such a big set-up table to ensure perfect alignment of the spar with a fixed riveter that you stood a bigger chance of messing up than when using a flexible one. The spar rivets are big enough that it's pretty easy to align the gun and bar. Just thought I'd pass that along. bd +++ #13209 From: "Dan Shilling" Subject: Riveters, 2x or 3x? For those of you ahead of me or just plain knowledgeable folk, Santa brought me a little Christmas cash and I want to buy a riveter. Regis, I would like to poll the audience to see if they prefer the 2x or 3x. I have been getting respectable results from the old air hammer, but want more control. When the front end doesn't work right I spin it around and bash it with the other end. Maybe it is time to use the finesse approach. Yes Del, you can borrow it. Dan Shilling +++ #13213 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: Riveters, 2x or 3x? Brown Aviation has the Sioux 3X rivet gun on sale for $209.95. Along with that you get a $15 credit toward your next purchase and a free Brown Aviation Tool T-Shirt. Just don't set the shirt on fire while you're welding! http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?ProductID=50 If you're going to buy a gun for Del to borrow, may as well get him a good one! Planter Bob +++ #13214 From: del@r...> Subject: RE: Riveters, 2x or 3x? > If you're going to buy a gun for Del to borrow, may as well get him > a good one! It's only fair. He has my hand rivet squeezer and his wife won't let him give it back because it is so much quieter than the air hammer he has been using as a rivet gun. Keep in mind that if you are planning on setting the ad5 rivets in the spar capstrips with the gun (as opposed to a squeezer or some other method) you will need a 3x gun minimum. A 4x gun would be better for the capstrip rivets but if you are going to only buy one gun the 3x is probably the way to go. Then again, I'm a tool freak and it is probably just a matter of time before I have 2x, 3x, and 4x guns... 8^P Once I finally do get an air compressor installed in the cave it will probably just be cheaper to hand the credit cards over to my wife, even if she does take them shopping. Del Rawlins +++ #13215 From: Drew Schumann Subject: RE: Riveters, 2x or 3x? I'm very partial to the 3x. The 2x is more compact, but in my opinion, more difficult to control. I start with a bigger gun, like a 3x, and adjust the pressure down. It seems the slower rate of the 3x doesn't act as squirrelly as the 2x in my hands. With a little practice, it seems you can do okay up to -4 rivets with the 2x. Drew (PS-the school I attend threw out a bunch of "junk" rivet guns and trash parts, from which I have constructed a Chicago pneumatics [Jap]air drill, a 2x Florida rivet gun, and the piece de resistance, a Sioux Tools 3x rivet gun. Those old Sioux 3x guns are sweeeet!) +++ #13224 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Riveters, 2x or 3x? No question, Dan. Get the 3X. The Erbman has spoken. All I have is a 3X, and have used it on everything from -3AD to -5AD rivets. It has just enough power to drive the -5AD rivets at about 90 psi, and is easy to control at lower pressures on -3AD rivets. A 2X may work as well on -3 and may be able to drive -4 with some effort, but why have two guns when one will do? Of course, tool collectors like Del will argue that... If you need to drive anything that your 3X won't handle, you can go back to your air hammer. We used one of those once on some -6 rivets. Russ Erb +++ #13247 From: tonychisum@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Riveters, 2x or 3x? I prefer the 3x. It has a longer stroke than the 2x. That makes it easer to control when shooting flush rivets, but for the size of rivets you will be mashing the 2x is the recommended gun. Tony #454 +++ #13249 From: "Kent White" Subject: RE: Riveters, 2x or 3x? Ektually, I prefer the 2.5X, made by Cleco before the hostile acquisition of Sioux, when the dominant mainframe was a 7X supported by 90 psi. The 2.6.1X was shortlived, as bonded structure phased out the continuity of solid fastener drivers of that size and speed. Anyone still speak binary? Kent +++ #13308 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: RE: Riveters, 2x or 3x? > Brown Aviation has the Sioux 3X rivet gun on sale for $209.95. Rivet guns are one of the things that come up on eBay pretty regularly. I took a chance, and picked up a perfectly servicable 3x Chicago Pneumatic and 5 sets for about $50. Benton +++ #14038 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: BearHawk-2 vs Rebel ... Also, my one and only actual W-2 income type job was as an aerospace fastener specialist (I was involved with Grumman, deHavilland, Kaman, Sikorsky, Piasecki, etc. on various design programs), as such, I have a predisposed dislike for using pull type rivets for overall structure. I know the Avex/Avdels are approved rivets, but all [should be 'NO'] pulled rivets except things like the Cherry Max and Bulb Loc and the Huck MLS series have enough guaranteed hole-fill to make me happy. The expansion of pull-type rivets is determined by their mandrel and therefore won't fill a hole if the hole is either oversized or irregular, which is the case with practically ALL drilled holes. The result is that they don't have total contact, like a driven rivet does (AD's flow out to fill all the irregularities and actually achieve an interference fit). So after a bunch of load cycles the rivets almost have to loosen up in the holes. The parts aren't going to come apart, but the structure isn't going to be as fatigue resistant as it would with solid rivets. I believe the Murphys are all CNC punched, aren't they, so their holes should be nice and clean and within tolerance, so this probably isn't a concern, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. bd +++ #14592 From: bcgh@a... Subject: Riveting - Hand Squeezers I know it's been covered in the past, but I thought I'd collect opinions again, since more people have been there, now... I have a rivet gun (3x). I intend to buy one of the deep throat yokes. Cleaveland claimed they'd increased the depth of theirs when I talked with them at Arlington last summer, tho' their web page still shows 22". Avery's is 22" now. Question is: Given those two tools, how strongly do people recommend also getting a hand squeezer? I'm not against buying tools that will really help the project along, but neither do I feel any great compulsion to buy *every* tool. -- Also, digging through the archives, I was reminded that Russ had put a copy of the Tony Bingelis "Rivet Gun Notes" article in the group 'Files' section. Look for riveting.zip. Benton +++ #14593 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: Riveting - Hand Squeezers I have an Avery hand squeezer and I like it a bunch. It was a big help on a non-bearhawk project, and it ought to be just the ticket for dimpling the rivet holes in the rib flanges. I loaned it to Dan Shilling about a month ago for use on his ailerons and it seemed to work well for him; in addition his wife didn't want to let him return it because it is so much quieter than the gun. If you buy the Avery squeezer the yokes are interchangeable with the standard CP214 style pneumatic squeezer should you decide to upgrade in the future. There are a variety of yokes available; I have a standard 2" yoke plus the "longeron" yoke which helps to reach some tough places. -- Del Rawlins +++ #14608 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Riveting - Hand Squeezers I've never used a hand squeezer. On the recommendation of some friends I went straight to the pneumatic squeezer. Works great. I like it, though they are a bit pricey initially. Russ Erb +++ #14610 From: Del Rawlins Subject: RE: Riveting - Hand Squeezers > I've never used a hand squeezer. On the recommendation of some > friends I went straight to the pneumatic squeezer. Works great. I > like it, though they are a bit pricey initially. Another point, is that even though things happen slower with a squeezer and you are less likely to make mistakes, it is still possible to screw up a rivet with one. I have proven this. -- Del Rawlins +++ #14635 From: charles.k.scott@d... Subject: Re: Digest Number 1103 > Question is: Given those two tools, how strongly do people recommend > also getting a hand squeezer? I'm not against buying tools that > will really help the project along, but neither do I feel any great > compulsion to buy *every* tool. I own a hand squeezer, which I've used a lot, and have not yet bought a rivet gun. I'm building a Christavia so I figured I don't need to go all out with riveting tools. I actually built an aluminum cover for the wing tanks and dimpled every screw hole around the perimeter using a dimple die clamped in a vise. I drilled holes in big pieces of steel to hold both the die and the dimple so they would take the blows from a hammer. I set the die into the piece of steel and clamped that in a vise. Then blocked up the cover so it was level and moved it around so that each drilled hole was lined up over the die, then placed the dimple on top and inserted the little nib into the drilled hole and into the die and whacked it with a hammer. The dimple had it's own steel body it was inserted into as well so it could be used in this manner. So I was whacking the steel body into which the dimple was inserted, not the stem of the dimple. That was before I got the hand squeezer. Now that I have the hand squeezer, I've used it to set rivets that hold nutplates on the tabs on the floor. It does take some hand strength to get the squeezer properly compressed. But if you adjust it to the right setting, it becomes almost second nature. I also set rivets without rivet sets. I used the head of a sledge hammer as the set and clamped that in a vise. Then I blocked up what was to be riveted so that it was horizontal to the sledge head and inserted the rivets and "squeezed" them down with a large hammer. It wasn't too difficult to get them to mash down properly so that they were centered over the rivet body. They actually looked pretty professional... most of them anyway. The rivets I was using were flush type so it didn't matter that I was using two flat surfaces to squeeze them. Needless to say, none of the metal work was structural, and if I'd had a rivet gun at the time, I would have used it. But with a wheazy anemic homebuilt compressor and no money to spend on tools, you can make do. Corky Scott +++ #14651 From: "Steve Eldredge" Subject: Rivets I bought my first batch of rivets and realized I bought the wrong type. Is there any use for SOFT (A instead of AN) rivets in an airframe? Steve E. +++ #14656 From: "Dan Montee" Subject: Re: Rivets You can use 'em in your fuel tanks. Dan Montee 415 +++ #14669 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Rivets I used some in the fuel tanks since they would be welded over. Don't use them for anything structural like the wings. Russ Erb +++ #14800 From: "pscimike" Subject: Re: Riveting - Hand Squeezers I'm not building a Bearhawk, but am building an RV-8, I have a Tatco hand squeezer with three different yoke sizes and a 3X rivet gun. I use the hand squeezer wherever I can as my first choice. I use the large C-frame pneumatic riveter at EAA chapter 448 instead of a benchtop riveter (avery or cleveland 22") for dimpling the skins. If you have a pneumatic squeezer, it is much easier on your hands after a couple dozen 1/8 in rivets. I found Brown tool to have a little better prices. +++ #15345 From: "Mark Conover" Subject: Pneumatic Rivet Squeezer - Optimal Yoke Size? Which size yoke is most useful? Is it a matter of finding one with the longest reach possible? Thanks for any advice, Mark Conover +++ #15433 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Pneumatic Rivet Squeezer - Optimal Yoke Size? Believe it or not, a long reach yoke is not always the answer. You'll probably want several. I have a 2-1/2" yoke on mine, which has worked well for most things. However, it couldn't reach some of the rivets on the rear spar because it was too long! Stuck in through the lightening hole, the yoke hit the back side of the hole, so it couldn't reach the rivets that were too close. Of course, if I had bothered to get (or borrow) a "longeron" yoke, I could have done all of the rivets on the rear spar. Most available yokes are going to limit you to rivets through about 1/4 to 5/16 of material, so you can't squeeze some of the main spar rivets unless you make a special yoke. Russ Erb +++ #17143 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Planetools & Squeezer Question > I did have a question on the mechanics of using the squeezer. > > It's an APT #720, which has about a 1/4" stroke. I don't see any > method of adjusting the gap, for different length rivets. A friend > suggested that the ram side might screw in and out, but that doesn't > seem to be the case. Am I likely missing something there?< On the squeezer I have, you do coarse adjustments with different thickness sets and fine adjustments by putting .063 and .032 thick washers for AN3 bolts under the sets. Russ Erb +++ #17158 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: Planetools & Squeezer Question > I did have a question on the mechanics of using the squeezer. You can use different height rivet sets and washers like Russ said, and I think that Avery also sells an adjustable set holder for the pneumatic squeezers. -- Del Rawlins +++ #17464 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Rivet Dispenser We had a tech-counselor visitor, Wally Anderson, up from Eugene to talk at our last chapter meeting. He had interesting info on a couple different topics, and this shop hint that works well enough. I don't know where he heard it, and suppose it might be an old idea, but I'll give him credit for it... Take a plastic film container, and cut a small hole in the cap, say about 3/8" square or so. Fill the bottle with rivets and put the cap on. With a shake, it pops out a rivet or two. But if you drop it, unlike an open tray, it...pops out a rivet or two. Don't have any empty film containers? Pop down to Costco, where they keep a barrel out for people to recycle 'em. Benton +++ $Id: 3.1.5-Tools-Riveting,v 1.15 2003/05/22 04:06:05 bentonh Exp $