+++ #824 Subject: 023 Progress and Lessons Learned From: William & Delinda Johnson Piper TriPacer Seats also took some work to find. I ended up paying $60 each - frames in very good condition and but they need covering. Seemed like allot but finding seats was not as easy as hoped. Salvage dealers did not have any. My source has a couple more sets if anyone is interested. +++ #1007 Subject: Re: Utility Door System Plans From: Float-By Shooter > step in docking - aside from not hitting the dock - was getting the > pilot seat back far enough that you didn't snag your feet on it and > end up hanging upside down. For those of you familiar with Tri-Pacers, do the seats allow easy adjustment while you are sitting in them (since they seem to be the recommended seat for bearhawks)? I've never looked at the seats and there aren't any based here for me to look at. +++ #1009 Subject: Spar vertical stiffeners & Tri Pacer seats From: Bill Cox The Tripacer seats are adjustable when your sitting in them. The early models had 1 bench seat. Starting about the '55 models there are 2 seats. The seats are very light and I've never heard of any problems with them coming loose like some Cessnas. +++ #1019 Subject: Re: Utility Door System Plans From: george velguth > For those of you familiar with Tri-Pacers, do the seats allow easy > adjustment while you are sitting in them (since they seem to be the > recommended seat for bearhawks)? I've never looked at the seats and > there aren't any based here for me to look at. > I seem to recall the need to pull on the V brace while holding the release up while pulling with my legs. Not the easiest seat to move forward, though they slid back quite readily. +++ #1020 Subject: Tri pacer seats From: Bill Cox George gives a pretty good description of the operation of a tripacer seat. If the force to move forward was felt to be objectionable a spring assist might be installed similar to what is used in some older cars. I've been flying Clippers, Pacers, and Tripacers since they were new and never found it to be a problem. +++ #1021 Subject: More Tripacer seats From: Bill Cox A little lubricant on the track is necessary, otherwise the seat operation can be pretty rough. +++ #1736 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: [Bearhawk] 023 Update I am now working in the main cabin section. Web site is updated with pictures. Press refresh when you get to the main page to get the latest. The Piper Tri-Pacer seats did not fit when put in the plane for seat track planning & engineering. I had a panic attack! I gave Bob a call for technical guidance. Once he told me that the seats needed a small amount removed from the front tube (1/2 to 1 inch), my heart slowed and all was well with the world. Pictures provide the best explanation so I will post once the installation is complete. I did copy the seat track installation out of a Tri Pacer and have the drawings with dimensions (drawn by hand). I will put on Autocad and make available at some point. Some pictures of the tracks are on my web site. I am curious, what are others using for seats? Bob said he has not had any questions related to seat installation. Perhaps I am just kinda slow when it comes to a place to put my bottom! +++ #2164 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: Bearhawk Rear Seats As promised, here are some details on the rear seat installation in N720SF. I went shopping in the Johnson Family Hanger/Elkton Fly mart and spotted a set of Comanche seats high above the hanger doors. With determination, I went to find the TALL ladder. Having positioned the ladder, I proceeded to retrieve my find. I negotiated a price with my Dad (I had to weld a crack in a Tri-Pacer gear he is fixing) and began the modification work. Comanche seats are light weight and have the same type spring construction as the Tripacer front seats. Very comfortable indeed. I cut 8 inches out of the seat bottom and back to shorten the width. I also took 5 inches of height out of the back. The back is hinged with the seat bottom to allow easy access into the baggage area. See pictures for installation details. I also added a truss type arrangement for addition floor support under the seat bottom. No picture available. http://home.fuse.net/wjohnson/Mvc-387f http://home.fuse.net/wjohnson/Mvc-388f http://home.fuse.net/wjohnson/Mvc-389f I am looking for a good upholstery shop to cover the seats in a soft tan leather. Oh, they will be beautiful! Total cost for all the seat frames (I had to buy the front seats) was $120 plus some time welding a Tripacer gear. Cost for covering in leather - well, we will see. +++ #2212 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: Fuselage Wing Fittings I have finally started adding some pictures under the wing construction section. Many more to follow over the next several weeks as I begin assembly of the wings. I have the spars and most ribs complete (finished in 96 before digital cameral) so limited pictures will be available. However, I will take pictures of the 4130 pieces as I build next week and as the wings are assembled. For now, enjoy the pictures of the fuselage wing fittings. http://home.fuse.net/wjohnson/wingconstruction.html On upholstery, it appears that leather seats will cost between $1700 & $2000. Not sure I can swing that! Airtex charges around $1000 if you get the premium fabric - better but not cheap. Their cheap seats are still about $750. As I price fabric at $22 per yard, plus foam, glue, etc it appears that the finish work is expensive any way you go! An auto upholstery shop may be the right answer but quality may suffer. As an FYI and for your budget planning: 0540 Engine with accessories (Overhauled) - $10,000 if you do overhaul yourself. Probably more if you go with an O360! Muffler and/or Pipes - $1000 if your lucky Propeller - $7500 (New Composite 2 blade with spinner) Propeller - $4500 (Comanche yellow tagged with Spinner) Radios & Instruments - $4000 if your lucky Strobes & Electrical - $1000 Upholstery - $1000 Paint and Finish - $1000 As you can see, if you spend $6000 on the basic airframe over several years, approximately 75% of your expense will be in the last year of building. I am really starting to feel the strain on the wallet. Plan now . . . +++ #2334 From: Benton Holzwarth Subject: Seats Bill wrote a week ago, thusly (#2212). I thought I'd pick up his thread on upholstery and seat finishing... > From: William & Delinda Johnson wjohnson@f... > Subject: Fuselage Wing Fittings > For now, enjoy the pictures of the fuselage wing fittings. > http://home.fuse.net/wjohnson/wingconstruction.html I've really enjoyed your pictures. Thanks for sharing. So far I haven't been convinced to switch from my 35mm, but there's something increasingly tempting about not having to run the film past the processors. > On upholstery, it appears that leather seats will cost between > $1700 & $2000. Not sure I can swing that! Airtex charges around > $1000 if you get the premium fabric - better but not cheap. Their > cheap seats are still about $750. As I price fabric at $22 per > yard, plus foam, glue, etc it appears that the finish work is > expensive any way you go! An auto upholstery shop may be the right > answer but quality may suffer. My thought on seats was to look into the car aftermarket. Several years ago, a neighbor ran a small business selling parts (mostly tune-up parts) to the local Bimmer club. He had a Koenig seat in his 'showroom' that looked like it'd be great in a plane. I had two rides at the time, one with Landcruiser buckets, and the other a 'german street machine' with Recaros. In the former, I was ready, after a 3 hr drive, to stand for the rest of the afternoon. In the latter I could take a five or six hour scenic loop around the NW, pull up back home in my driveway, and feel like I could jump back in and go do it again. If you want to be able to fly most of the day, and still be good for anything when you get there, a good, supportive and correctly adjusted seat is really important. Neighbor Frank had a catalog of models and colors; and adaptors to make the seat fit any of several car models. Seems like there ought to be something there that could work in a BH fuse. Another thought, if you just *can't* resist the tempation to 'engineer' something, working out the seat base-adaptor as one of those 26-G back protectors could be a place to try. Not that your back is a good place to experiment, but if the alternative is a completely rigid frame from a piper, you couldn't do much worse, unless you managed to design it to spear you as it collapsed. Pros: - comfort, - adjustability (no pumps and motors, just cranks, etc), - durability, - comfort. - it's not leather. Cons: - it's not leather. - uncertain fire-retardent properties, - weight ? (tho' I suspect it weighed a good bit less than the std vista-cruiser bench), - cost, I remember them being about $275 ea. in '85, with 'adaptor'. a good bit more than a third-hand TriPacer seat, but less than your cow-hides, even if you do grow the cow yourself out behind the aluminum grove. Thoughts? Does this seem at all reasonable? Certainly the plane makes more coordinated turns than the car did, so the high side bolsters might not be essential. -- An aside - I saw some pictures once of a car, where they were experimenting with replacing the panhard rod with a hydraulic cylinder plumbed to pistons under the corners. They were still playing with the ratios -- as it was currently set, the car would _bank_ into turns. +++ #2340 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Seats My guess is that the Koenig seat will be wide. I had to cut about 5/8 of an inch from the front of the tripacer seats - Bob did the same. As you know, Tripacer seats are already narrow BEFORE cutting down! If Koenig seats will fit and are light, sounds like a neat idea. Do they have a web site? +++ #2342 From: Shelly Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Seats I've fooled around with a lot of seats. I am most impressed with the Volvo (old) for comfort and adjustability. Their concept, design and construction are top quality. They are somewhat complex, but I'm sure that contributes to their comfort. They can be easily reduced in width and size. Only penalty is weight. Still, if one uses only their adjustment systems, it is worth a trip to the scrap yard. I've heard the same about Saab, but no personal experience. +++ #2354 From: Morrison, John Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Seats On the topic of seats, take a look at a auto performance catalog such as www.summitracing.com for automotive racing seats. Some of them are articulated just like production seats, and all have 4-point harness capability. All are certainly cheaper than fabricating and would be a lot cleaner than some worn out scrapyard seats. +++ #4360 From: Pat Fagan pfflyerz@c... Subject: building seats Not long ago, someone had mentioned they had built their own seats using zig-zag springs like Bingellis describes. I want to build a rear bench seat and wondered where to find the springs? +++ #4370 From: "Rod Smith" Subject: Re: building seats > Not long ago, someone had mentioned they had built their > own seats using zig-zag springs like Bingellis describes. I would be interested in the answer to that also. You may have to canabalize some old seats to obtain it. During my fruitless search for front seats, I found and was given a Pacer front seat (one piece) which I will use the spring material from. Will build my own front seats. Will need more of the material for the back seat. I believe Bill Johnson modified a Commanche bench seat for his back seat. +++ #4373 From: "DANFORD, GARY" Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Re: building seats I use to do automotive seat repair and purchase springs from a automotive upholstery supply company here in Kansas City. The company "National Fabric Co. 913/281-1833" has the springs, however you have to purchase it by the roll, 115 ft for 36.00. +++ #4379 From: "Bill Cox" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] building seats In the past I've built several of these seats and bought the zig zag springs from the local upholster shop. Most of guys running the auto upholstery shops in this area are rodders at heart and generally willing to do business with airplane builders. +++ #4380 From: Shelly Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Re: building seats We found some terrific seats in old cars, specifically Saabs and Volvos. They are a bit heavy, but can be pruned easily and they have excellent designs for sliding. Some food for thought here. +++ #4384 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Re: building seats The Suzuki Samurai has a small, light, easy seat to work with as well. +++ #4392 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] building seats Any upholstery shop or upholstery supply Co. (see yellow pages) will have them. They come in two or three gauges. Or you could scrounge them from an old couch. +++ #4395 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] building seats I just noticed in the web site of the C Bee being built That Tim mentioned, There is a photo of a seat. It appears to have straps woven across it like a lawn chair. I am currently upholstering a C 177 and used Ceconite across the seat frame. If you look at the above photo, you can see pink, blue and green foam. This is a relatively new type of foam which has excellent impact-absorption properties, as well as good cushioning comfort. It's called CONFOR foam and meets FAA fire retardant requirements. This is the first time I have used it and it seems to be really great foam although a little pricey. +++ #4397 From: "Robert L. Thomasson" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] building seats > This will take you right to Doug's Homemade 'Aircar' Seat > I'd been checking it out earlier, and it looks like a heckuva seat, and light. I wonder if Doug would be interested in selling plans? [ , now. BJH ] +++ #4399 From: budd davisson Subject: Re: Temper foam I've used the triple density foam, also called Temper foam, in my Pitts for years. Theoretically, you're supposed to be able to put 3" of it on a sheet of plywood and it'll conform to your butt and be comfortable. I haven't found that to be the case. I wound up putting mine on a base of rigid foam which had indents scooped out of for my butt bones. Then I glued small wedges of hard foam about an inch deep by four inches wide down the sides of the seat and ran them from front to back. Now the foam conforms better and gives better support to my thighs. A downside to this foam is that it turns to concrete at temps under about 45 degrees. It warms to the body and begins to conform, but at the beginning, you're sitting high on what feels like a cement block. My seats are upholstered in black and i always take them out and sit them in the sun, when it's cold and they soften immediately. They compress exactly 50%, so you lose 1 1/2 inches in height after sitting a minute or two. Incidentally, the rigid foam base is three inches thick and I sliced it vertically in about three inch squares on the theory that it could split apart and absorb some energy in a hard vertical impact. I've got 800-900 hours (3 years) on it but haven't had a crash yet to test the theory. +++ #4400 From: Russ Erb Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] building seats > If you look at the above photo, you can see pink, blue and > green foam. See Spruce Catalog for more details (p 38 in 2000-2001 catalog). +++ #4428 From: "DANFORD, GARY" Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Seat Spring Material The "Zig Zag" spring material is just that, a single wire bent in a "zig Zag" pattern that is 115 ft long. It takes a quite a bit to make up a seat. If you space it 2" and a seat is three feet wide, that's 18 lengths (or so) about 14" long each is 20+ feet just for one seat bottom. In round numbers that's about 80 ft per airplane!! Then if you work like I do you have to add another 50% for mistakes and there you have it. 115 ft. +++ #4440 From: Russ Erb Subject: Identify your tailwheel early! A week and half ago I made the hour trek south to Pearblossom to check out Pat Fagan's progress. He's got the wings done and the fuselage frame welded up. The fuselage is at the classic 90%/90% stage--It looks 90% done, but has about 90% to go. All of that fitting out takes a long time. He'll still be done before me. I'm hoping he'll be nice enough to give me some time-in-type before my first flight. A couple of items that came up in our discussions: 1. Pat finally managed to find some Tri-Pacer front seats which he had mounted in the fuselage frame. He has noticed a significant interference between the seat and the control stick. It seems that something was said a long time ago that Bob had modified the seats he used--perhaps shortening the bottom seat? Can anyone confirm or deny this? +++ #4442 From: "Float-By Shooter" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Identify your tailwheel early! > 1. Pat finally managed to find some Tri-Pacer front seats > which he had mounted in the fuselage frame. He has noticed > a significant interference between the seat and the control > stick. I remember reading something to the effect of the seat being modified, but I'm not sure in what way. Seems to me that instead of trying to salvage and modify some other kind of seat, that I want Bearhawk seats for my plane. Something designed from the start to fit in a Bearhawk without interference problems, like would be available with the upcoming Bearhawk kit. +++ #4443 From: Corky Scott charles.k.scott@d... Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Digest Number 272 > 1. Pat finally managed to find some Tri-Pacer front seats... I might not be understanding this correctly, but you can't just warp the control stick around the seat? I've seen lots of sticks that had a significant bend in them to bring them around the seat and to the proper hand position. +++ #4444 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Digest Number 272 You're right. The Bearhawk's stick comes up from the floor about 4" or so, does a 90 degree straight forward for another four, then comes up for about another four and starts sloping back, then up again. Almost as many curves and angles as my first center rib. Growing 4130 like that is nearly impossible, so I'll just have to bend mine like everyone else. In spite of the geometry Bob Barrows still went ahead and cut nearly an inch off of the front tubes of the Tri-Pacer seats. +++ #4446 From: "Rod Smith" Subject: Seats and tubular tailwheel springs That is exactly what I have decided to do. > I remember reading something to the effect of the seat being > modified, but I'm not sure in what way. Seems to me that > instead of trying to salvage and modify some other kind of > seat, that I want Bearhawk seats for my plane. I asked the same question back early in December. See Budd's reply, message #3967. While he didn't say whether it would be incorporated in the kit, he gave some guidelines for doing it, which I have been working on. Maybe he can elaborate further. +++ #4447 From: budd davisson Subject: Re:Kit Seats, tailwheel springs, windows To answer the questions asked: As production proceeds and we get things fine tuned we are going to design and build seats, as an option. We will also incorporate Bob's new aileron hinge design, once it is proven. As it is now, however, we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, so, what you see in the plans is what you'll see in the kit, with the exception of a minor change in the shape and construction of the back windows. +++ #4457 From: Tim Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Seats and tubular tailwheel springs After my Flying Club meeting tonight, I'll scan/upload to our 'Files' area, the Cessna C-150 seat construction diagram, from an Original Cessna C150 Service Manual that I bought from Cessna few years back.....It may help generate some ideas or construction methods... +++ #4460 From: Tim Subject: Bearhawk...Seats?, Front & Rear auxiliary C-150 seats seem to be at a premium as many homebuilders use them in several different types...Saw a pair for sale on Ebay, loads of bids. I guess some reasons are, low profile, tilt forward, light/sturdy....I also had the Child's seat in my Spamcan. A builder could widened the Auxiliary for a perm/temp BH back seat... and the Pilot seat: Both from C150 Service manual ...... +++ #4614 From: budd davisson Subject: Re:Upholstery stuff I just received my catalog from National Fabric Co, which someone mentioned as a source of seat springs. It's a good catalog to have in the file because it has a bunch of other stuff that would be applicable to doing an interior. 800-821-7542 +++ #5171 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Seats At Sun 'N Fun I will start collecting some of the parts I need to upholster my seats. I have a pair of TriPacer seats that I plan to redo with Sunfoam or Temper foam. The existing seats have a spring "Z" wire support. I have been told that these type of foams work best with a solid base. My intent is to form a piece of aluminum for the bottom and back which I'll suspend from the frame with short double hook springs (similar to what old Army bunks use). Then place the three layer foam on top and upholster over it. Anyone see a problem with this plan and my treatment of the foam? Should my aluminum support be screwed directly to the frame rather than fastened with springs? Remember this is a cross country plane, not used for aerobatics. I thought the spring suspension might add to long flight comfort even though the foam will "fit" one's bottom eliminating pressure points. +++ #5172 From: "William & Delinda Johnson" Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Seats Bruce, I intend to keep the springs and use the old fashion foam. Frankly, I think the tripacer seats are fairly comfortable! +++ #5173 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Seats Re: Temperfoam and springs Keep the springs and put a fairly heavy sheet of someting plyable over the springs before putting the temperfoam down. I have something like 500 hours on the temperfoam seats I built for my Pitts and I find their claim that it will work fine on a flat piece surface to be a little optimistic. Either that or I have a boney butt, as it starts to develop hot spots on my butt bones. My foam is resting on blocks of ridgid foam. I eventually, scooped out the ridgid foam just a little to form a depression for the bones, then built a ridge down the sides for lateral support. Now they are great! The cushions are shaped to go well up under my legs with a cut out for the stick. The three-density, 3" foam compresses exactly half of its thickness, so you lose 1.5 inches of hieght as it warms up. Which brings up another fact: when it gets below about 40-45 degrees, this stuff turns to concrete until your fanny warms it up. I sit my cushions out in the sun while I'm preflighting the airplane or I can barely get the canopy closed. A good point is that it really does conform to your shape, in my case, Mk. I Boney, which I find contradictory, as my body is anything but boney. I think the springs with only a couple inches of the medium density temperfoam would be the hot ticket for long range. +++ #5174 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Seats > I intend to keep the springs and use the old fashion foam. > Frankly, I think the tripacer seats are fairly comfortable! I don't disagree, but my seats have been stored where a roof rat (only in California) traveled every day for several weeks till I got him (actually laid the Decon bait on the seat). So my seats, though newly upholstered when I got them, will need a renewal. (my wife would never ride on just a "cleaned" rat tracked seat) I thought I'd do them up right so that is why I am asking the questions. +++ #5176 From: Russ Erb Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] Seats With deference to budd's reply, I'm not sure what the springs add, other than damping some of the bumps in the air before they get to your butt. We have new desk chairs at work that are made with "Comfor-foam" or something like that that seems just like Temperfoam, but I have yet to bottom out in one of them. Works great. I think this is another area to be addressed by testing. Build a seat or a seat mockup, then sit in it for several hours. Fix any problems you find, much as budd describes. +++ #5177 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Seats Back in '95 I rode with Bayard DuPont in his Defiant from New Garden (N57) to OSH sitting only on a layer of hi-density carpet foam. Bayard is a believer in HD carpet padding foam for re-upholstering airplane seats. (his wife used to have a business on the side re-upholstering homebuilt aircraft seats) The flight from eastern PA to OSH took only 3.5 hours, but I was amazed that I never developed discomfort on that single layer. Bayard believes that one can achieve comfort equal to Temperfoam with layers of different density carpet foam for virtually no cost. I am testing that now, but I've sat on Temper foam seats and short term in warm weather they are amazing. My sister, with her bad back, bought a mattress (for $2500) that is 100% Layered Temperfoam. She is sleeping without pain for the first time in 30 years (automobile accident as a teenager). The more information the better, because this is an expensive option. +++ #5182 From: Shelly Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Seats I would like to hear you comment further on HD carpet foam. Is Bayard Dupont still using it? Is there a specific foam or manufacturer? Has anyone else tried it or written about it? And you sat on only one layer of this stuff for 3.5 hours? Hard to believe. Can it be sandwiched? Need more info! +++ #5187 From: pfflyerz@c... Subject: jackpot I finally received the upholstery catalog that was recommended and was looking at the zig-zag springs. The catalog stated that the springs are also used in furniture constuction. This brought to mind a faint recollection of having seen such springs on one of my many walks through the desert. This morning I walked over to one of the local illegal dumps and, sure enough, there they were. I came away with enough springs to do two sets of seats and had a nice campfire with the scrap wood tonight. Might be worth checking into for anyone else looking for this stuff. +++ #5803 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Parachutes > From: snorttheoneandonly@y... [SMTP:snorttheoneandonly@y...] > > You're right of course. The gross weight of the Bearhawk is > significantly greater than the planes on which a BRS is being > used. I knew BR systems were used on Cessna's. I found the URL > of where I had seen something months ago > http://www.safeflightinternational.com/aircraft.htm > > I hadn't realized the relatively low weight of a Cessna 152 > compared to a Bearhawk. > > O.K. How about those "comfortable" thin pack parachutes you can > wear while flying? Over mountains with complete engine > failure...Said a bit tongue in cheek, but I'm safety obsessed > after having a few bad rides and want to cover my butt with > every precautionary measure I can use. I'd be thrilled if > somebody came up with a large foam/air bag that would explode > outward with just the notion of impact. Having flown to places > like Madeira, Portugal (famous for crappy gusts from all > directions...sometimes all at once) in an ATR which felt more > like a piece of crumpled paper being tossed all over the place > in the wind, I'm a tad worried about what would happen to a > significantly smaller plane. I wasn't flying, just watching the > pilot lose his composure a bit! I realize that for me I just > want VFR days with manageable winds! > > Kind regards, > JW alias "LeSnort"(chicken flyer)?:0 You may want to plan to make your seat cushions removable--leave them in if you're not wearing the parachute, take them out when you are wearing the parachute. 14 CFR Part ?? requires that parachutes be inspected and repacked every 120 days (about 3 times a year). Make sure you have access to a rigger who can do that. Russ Erb #164, Edwards CA +++ #6095 From: "Tim Anderson" Subject: Fwd: Re: Have a seat Jerry has developed some jump seats (for a Skywagon) but they may be applicable to the bearhawk. He may be amenable to modifying the skywagon version to specifically fit the bearhawk if there is demand for bearhawk seats. Something to concider for those that are that far along. See his web address for photo's. Tim From: GSASTAFF To: Skywagon Discussion List Subject: [Skywagons] Have a seat Good Morning Well, looks like today, my seats are headed to Alaska, even if I'm stuck in Ohio. When I bought my 185, the seller Didn't want to let the Stowable "jump seats" go with the Deal. I talked him out of them with the promise of building replacements. By the time it was all said and done, I hand 5 sets. With the last 2 sets headed to Ak, I'm wondering if I should make more. Have to improve some on that 10 year turn over, though. If any of you folks would care for more info, here is a link to what I have prepared. Green Sky Special Projects Regards, Jerry Olenik +++ #6097 From: Jimmy Mathis Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Fwd: Re: Have a seat I know this will sound strange, But bear with me. If you check out the Jegs automotive catalog (www.jegs.com -- ed.) you will find a "Pro High Back Seat" #550-70020. We have installed these seats on our ultra light PPCs and really like the price ($37.99 shipping included) The seats weigh approx 5lbs and are extremely comfortable with low back support and molded in holes for a five point harness. For added looks you can get covers in different colors for an additional 23 to 34 dollars. These seats have six mounting bolt holes on the bottom. they look nice and are comfortable and priced well. they are are intended for race cars, so are designed for impacts (God forbid) Just thought ya'll might be interseted. I am mailing my check to Bob today and Texas will have another builder. I intend to mount the above seats in my Bearhawk since I like good back support. Jimmy Mathis +++ #6098 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Fwd: Re: Have a seat I looked at the seats you mentioned. However, I don't see any difference between them and the stock Cessna Stowable seats in our C-180. I was hoping that these were the folding ones that I've seen on a couple of Skywagons. Essentially, the seat folds up against the side of the cabin. It's really slick and prevents the loss of those bolts when you drop them overboard while trying to re-install the seat. (it's amazing how many parts and tools get sucked up into the lake bottom below the plane ;-) Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #7347 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:15:42 -0700 From: Russ and Penny Erb erbman@ Subject: Seat construction The latest Bear-Tracks has notional drawings for building a rear seat frame. As expected, it shows using zig-zag springs to support the seat. I had been thinking of building seats essentially with a pan bottom and using a cushion of 3-layered 3" Temperfoam (now listed as Conforfoam). We have office chairs with this foam at work and I really like them. The disadvantages of Temperfoam are that it is expensive and I think I heard it is rather heavy. I have no idea how to upholster over zig-zag springs. What would anybody think of using a 1" cushion of Temperfoam over zig-zag springs? What can anybody tell us about upholstery? Russ Erb +++ #7352 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel Mayhall jmay2174@ Subject: Re: Seat construction Most quality seats use coil springs for the foundation. Cost and production simplicity (cheaper labor) caused the introduction of the "Z" springs used in most seats today. For weight savings, a fabric webbing (looks like a lawn chair) can be used. Cessna used a solid sheet fabric glued to the frame on some of their seats. A solid sheet of aluminum would be the least comfortable for the foundation. Springs or webbing are covered with burlap, felt or other insulators to protect the foam or cover from abrasion caused by the foundation. Next the foam and/or seat cover is placed over the foundation. Three inches of foam is about the minimum you would use unless weight or thickness (head clearance) is critical. The extra long sides of the seat cover are pulled down and around the base of the frame and usually attached to the base with hog rings (looks like a "C" made from wire) or are glued to the frame. Most foams have a density of 3.5 to 7.5 pounds per cubic foot. The Confor Foams run 5.7 to 6.0 lb/cu-ft. Generally as the density increases on any type of foam, the comfort and longevity increases. For clarification, "Temperfoam" is the trade name of a mattress. "Confor" foam is the trade name used by the foam manufacturer, Aearo E A R Specialty Composite, for their aerospace foams. Joel +++ #7357 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:10:40 EDT From: BruceAFrank@ Subject: Re: Seat construction I have talked to the people at both Temper foam and Sunfoam. Both told me that if I upholster my zigzag spring Piper seats with their foam that I should lay a piece of aluminum sheet over the springs because the foam, even with a layer of canvas over the springs, will squish into the lattice. Suggestion was to use the small hooked end coil springs like the ones that are used (or used to be used ?) on military barracks beds to suspend flat sheets of aluminum in place of the zigzag springs. The weight of the small quantity of "Temperfoam" used in the seats is a very small trade off for the quality of the resulting comfort on long flights. +++ #7366 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:09:36 -0700 From: "Kent White" kent@ Subject: RE: Seat construction > The disadvantages of Temperfoam are that it is expensive and I > think I heard it is rather heavy. I have no idea how to upholster over zig-zag springs. What would anybody think of using a 1" cushion of Temperfoam over zig-zag springs? What can anybody tell us about upholstery? +++ #7376 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:12:08 -0700 From: Russ and Penny Erb erbman@ Subject: RE: Seat construction > Russ, Won't the foam take on water from the air and increase > its weight by doing so? Dunno. I haven't heard of this being a problem from anywhere. > Why not use the latest version of Pirelli straps to simply > weave the seat backs and bottoms right on the frame (instead > of the zigzag springs) and be done with it? The strap is an > elastic-reinforced material which holds up for years, is > incredibly strong, and offers great comfort, and minimal > efforts at cleaning. And...is fairly light weight. Uh, because I don't know what a Pirelli strap is? Are you saying to put this under the foam or do the straps form the seat itself? Sounds suspiciously like the "troop seats" in military cargo aircraft only maybe not quite as uncomfortable (had enough of those in my day). Please elucidate. Erbman +++ #7281 Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 01:04:37 EDT From: rdcraddock@ Subject: Re: Seat construction While at OSH I wondered into a NASA building that had displays on various crashworthiness issues, and had a brief summary from a University of Oklahoma ( I think) professor who had managed a study on high-G tolerant seat structures for GA. They achieved rather remarkable performance using a seat pan structure of expanded stainless steel that was wire knitted to fore and aft located crossmembers. The expanded metal had perforations and was pulled into a diamond pattern, similar to what you might see as outer panels for reuseable HVAC filters. The expanded metal tends to creep over time, so they used a couple of aluminum straps designed to maintain shape in normal use, but fail quickly in a crash and allow the mesh to plastically deform. They were using a multi-density foam laminate as a seat cushion over the mesh pan. I'll try to find the sheet he gave me, and give you the correct references. Also related to crash worthiness was his suggestion to incorporate a sort of toboggan curve of steel tubing at the bottom of the firewall (inside the cowling) to prevent the lower longerons from digging in during a crash landing. Not a pleasant thought, but it seems easy enough to incorporate while we're at it. I will now resume my lurking. Roger +++ #7407 Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:06:47 -0700 From: Budd Davisson buddairbum@ Subject: Re: I'm back!!!!!! As for the seat discussion below: I spent a lot of time talking with Stu Horn of Aviat and their FAA guy about crash survivable seats, since he's trying to certify a bunch of new airplanes. The concensus with the FAA crash guy was that you could design for a given impact situation, but it wouldn't work in the next one. He was very discouraged about their real world findings versus the theoretical stuff. 'Guess the best solution is to design your flying around crashing and have a good restraint system. If this proves to be more than a fluke, I'll put up some factory pictures I brought back. bd +++ #7641 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:46:36 EDT From: Loontus@ Subject: Re: Seat construction > I have no idea how to upholster over zig-zag springs. What > would anybody think of using a 1" cushion of Temperfoam over > zig-zag springs? You definitely do NOT want to put the foam directly on the zig-zag springs, it will squish through. See if you can get some of that material used for porch glide cushions, woven nylon twine with a resilient vinyl coating sealing the whole thing but still open weave. Secure it around the sides. You could even lace it to the springs every couple of inches. Put on an inch of very stiff foam, something that if you stand on it with both feet, just barely fully compresses. Top that with the 'Conforfoam' and upholstery. My Dad and I reupholstered the seats on my MG. The back seat bench is built up from wire but the front buckets look like formed in place OSB! Very light for a 1967 sedan. Personally, I would not use zig-zag for vehicle seats, especially aircraft. Too much give. I redid my Lotus seats (steel pans) last year and put Conforfoam in the butt and lower back panels, the leg, upper back and head panels are the original foam as well as the three side pieces on each side. Eleven pieces of foam in all, each cut to a different shape as are the upholstery panels for each. But they do look nice - and are comfy. Dave Faust, N43 >>> 2mar02 #7686-9153 +++ #8197 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Tiedown Rings For Mike Meadow or anyone else who can answer this: In the fuselage picture book and Bear-Tracks, we have seen The Bob's tiedown rings in the pictures. In the July 2001 Bear-Tracks Mike shows the rear seat held down by tie-down rings. My question: Are these rings available commercially or did Bob do something like bend a rod into a circle and weld it to a bolt? Russ Erb +++ #8199 From: "Del Rawlins" Subject: Re: Tiedown Rings > My question: Are these rings available commercially or did Bob > do something like bend a rod into a circle and weld it to a > bolt? I think they are a standard hardware store item. I've also seen them advertised in the Northern Tool (http://www.northerntool.com/) catalog for use as trailer tiedown rings. Del Rawlins +++ #8211 From: pfflyerz@c Subject: Re: Tiedown Rings The cargo area tie downs are standard hardware store eyebolts. The wing tie down was manufactured by Bob. It is a rod bent in a U-shape with washers welded on each end. Pat Fagan #232 Pearblossom CA +++ #8366 From: "Del Rawlins" Subject: Re: Some thoughts on restraints > I plan on designing a seat that will fold up against the side > of the fuselage for the left rear ala Atley Dodge's Cessna > seats, my neighbor has them in his C185 I can model it > from. Cant do that on the right side due to the cargo door so > will plan on a light weight removable seat. Mounting still to > be determined. Take a look at how the rear bench seat works in a Jeep Wrangler. It "folds and tumbles" forward and can be secured up against the backs of the front seats; this leaves the majority of the (small) cargo area available for cargo. The whole assembly comes out easily with the removal of one small clip for maximum hauling capacity. I think that a similar arrangement would be ideal for the Bearhawk, since it would leave almost the entire cargo area unobstructed with the rear seat stowed forward. You also wouldn't have to worry about removing the right rear seat and securing it for flight. The downside would be the inability to maximize cargo space with only three aboard (with Rod's proposed arrangement you could remove the right rear seat for a little extra floor space). When I was still in Cordova, I had the chance to examine my buddy's (you may remember him as "Boog") super cub fuselage just before they started putting the covering back on, and one of the mods that he made was to install a cargo net behind the rear seat to keep objects back there. He once had a bag of sand (that he thought was properly secured) slide into the rear control stick and is not anxious to repeat the experience; fortunately the elevator trim on a Citabria is extremely powerful and fast to adjust. I think that on the Bearhawk it would be a really good idea to install some tiedown rings (or other appropriate mounting point) on the ceiling structure in addition to the Barrows style tiedown rings on the floor, and fabricate a cargo net that can be stretched between them to keep the cargo out of the cabin, particularly in the event of a crash. Del Rawlins +++ #8368 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: Some thoughts on restraints Del, all you have to do is take this idea one step further, split the rear seats so that you can fold and tumble them independantly. That will give you the ability to maximize cargo room with three on board. More importantly, it allows you to stow heavy cargo items closer to the CG. We've done this numerous times on the 180. In fact, we more often have the plane geared with 3 seats than with four. The fourth seat just unbolts and comes apart for stowage. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #8369 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Some thoughts on restraints My intent from the very beginning has been to be able to remove my rear seat and stow it to one side of the cabin to allow open floor area so that two people could sleep in the cabin in really inclement weather. My rear seat setup is a full width of the cabin sling notched into brackets on the cabin sides. The frame work consists of three 1" .049 wall 4130 tubes, positioned so that one is behind the knees, the next slightly lower behind the buttocks, and the third about at the shoulder blade point. A hinged single center support rests on the floor to when the seat is heavily loaded. A modified canvas sling forms the seat. Modified because sling type seats become uncomfortable after a little while. The support tubes are sewn in to pockets and in the spans between tubes are pockets containing stiffeners of aluminum sheet. To the canvas top are Velcro attached cushions made with Sunfoam (similar to Tempur foam). The resulting bench seat is very comfortable. I knocked together a support frame and set it up in my family room and have sat for hours watching television on this very comfortable seat. Bruce A. Frank +++ #8375 From: "Del Rawlins" Subject: Re: Some thoughts on restraints > Del, all you have to do is take this idea one step further, > split the rear seats so that you can fold and tumble them > independantly. Yes, I like this a lot. It might mean another couple of mount points on the floor, and some more tubing in the seat frames, but should be worth it for the additional versatility. The fairly minimal rear seats I have envisioned should fold up nice and flat against the backs of the front seats (I'll have to allow for front/rear adjustment of the front seats somehow). They probably won't be the most comfortable things for a long trip, but it isn't like *I'm* going to be sitting back there. 8^) Del Rawlins +++ #8376 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Some thoughts on restraints Seat thoughts: There's a set of STC'd seats for 185's (and probably 180s) that hinge on the fuselage side. They fold upsideways and get completely out of the way. They are more or less short trip seats, but they work really well. It would be easy to set up something like that on the BH. bd +++ #9841 From: "Kevin DeShazer" Subject: Bearhawk Seat Drawing My name is Kevin DeShazer and I am an Engineer and neighbor of Bobs. I have recently made a couple CAD drawings for him including his Bearhawk Tailwheel. Bob supplied me with a Tripacer seat frame which I reverse-engineered into a drawing that can be built and used in the Bearhawk. You can see a preview of it at this link http://pws.prserv.net/deshazer/seat.JPG The full size drawing is crystal clear and only twenty dollars. I put a lot of time into doing this and have only sold a couple of copies. Check it out and let me know if you would like one. Not too late for Christmas. Kevin DeShazer 2202 Haymakertown Rd Troutville VA 24175 540 992 4248 +++ #8537 From: Bob Romanko Subject: Modifications to think about... I just came across this article on AVweb: http://www.avweb.com/articles/profiles/bgriffin/ Bob Griffin's had an exciting career as a mission pilot, and has some suggested mods to the Helio. Look under the heading "Give us examples of your suggestions". I'm thinking that some of these may benefit the Bearhawk as well. I'd like to learn more about his "crash-resistant seat" design. I get a bit concerned when I hear folks yanking a seat out of anywhere and dropping it into an experimental. What good is a full harness if you're sitting in a Yugo seat? Planter Bob +++ #8538 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Modifications to think about... Seat thoughts: In my mind, the first order of business would be to make any restraint system independent of the seat. Then you could be sitting in a bushel basket and still not go rocketing around the inside of the airplane. As for the vertical component, right now airframe manufacurers are going nuts trying to solve this and it's beginning to look as if the best you can do is provide some sort of deacceleration distance and hope it works because there are so many different variables in a crash that you can't provide for all of them. One of the slickest, simplest approaches is a composite "eggcrate" design under your butt that is designed to crush under crash condition G loads. Maybe the Yugo seat isn't such a bad idea, as it would probably crumble and absorb some of the shock. bd PS One of my hotrod fantascies is building up a tubing frame with a nasty small block and cloaking it in a Yugo body. Driver in the back seat. But...I digress...again. +++ #8539 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: Modifications to think about... My thoughts regarding seats are that I would want something that would collapse, but not collapse into a collection of ginsu knives. I'd hate to pass on to the great beyond with my body intact but a flat piece of aluminum through my gizzard from a poorly designed seat. Sure, you can't plan for everything, but I just came back from Alaska six weeks ago and have a whole new appreciation for the guys who are thinking of mods/safety. The terrain up there makes Central Virginia look like one big airport. (grin) Planter Bob +++ #8540 From: "geraldmorrissey" Subject: Seats Call Oregon Aero. I had a long talk with their rep about seat design and these folk have done their homework. They feel the best design is a good cushion with multiple densities of foam to efficiently slow the body mass in the event of a high G desceleration. Combined with a well designed restraint system this might be the way to go. Not too expensive either. You should see the seat in my 150, some thin padding, some cheesy springs and then the cabin floor. Also check out the work Wichita State University did on seat design. +++ #8541 From: "zipppydoggg" Subject: Re: Modifications to think about... I've poked around the web looking for the Nasa seat touched on, no luck yet. I work for a helicopter company, where the crash requirements for seats are high. The ange on impact to the ground can be very steep, so the vertical component can be high. The approach used on these seats is to have the seat ride on fixed rails in the vertical direction. the seat is suspended by two steel rods approximately 1/4 inch in diameter. These rods pass through hardened steel holes attached to the seat structure. The rods are the shape of a cone with taper greatly enlongated. During the crash, the seat moves downward, causeing the steel rods to be "extruded" through the hardened steel hole. As the rod diameter increases, as the seat moves further down, the resisting force increases. Energy is absorbed and imposed on the occupant in a controled but ever increasing manner. By the way, a rule of thumb I picked up a long time ago is that 50G (enough to break your back) can be attunuated to 5G (could still hurt you, but not as bad)in .5 inch (usually available in a design), someone check my math. I don't think anyone would want to fund a truely crask worthy seat design (this company spend a bath tub full of money), but I agree with Bud, keep the sharp stuff out from under the seat, and tie the seat/sholder belts to strong suff. By the way, the stiffer the fuselage, the greater load is put on the occupants, remember the Mercedese as on TV about crush zones? I would like to see the Nasa design if someone can find it. My $.02 worth today Best to all this year Rob Gaddy +++ #8544 From: Jimmy Mathis Subject: Re: restraints I currently fly a homebuilt from plans powered parachute. I have a seat from Jegs automotive. It is a fiberglass seat that fits your description. Bucket seat type that conforms well to your back and head rest. Also it has molded in holes for five restraints. It has six mounting holes on the bottom. Best of all it weighs around five pounds. It is extremely comfortable. Since its introduction to PPC airframes by the designer, many of the commercially produced powered parachute companies have started using this seat because of the comfort factor. I plan on using this seat in my Bearhawk. A pair with seat covers cost $131.00. Jimmy 501 +++ #8548 From: "dasstolguy" Subject: Racing Seats and 5/6 point Harnesses Could? (is there any advantage to using a Racing Car seat such as Kirkey "Speedway Deluxe" (see link below) in a BearHawk? Could you mount it to sliding rails and still get its safety benefit? Is a 5/6 point harness practical in a BearHawk? Is a 6 point better than a 5 point in aircraft application? http://www.kirkeyracing.com/Seats.html Rob Sexmith +++ #8823 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Neat seat idea... I found this pic when looking over some info on the Vision aircraft and thought it would work quite well on a Bearhawk: http://www.arrow4graphics.com/Vision/seats/seattest1.jpg Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #9015 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Bearhawk Seats With the discussion of finding salvageable TriPacer seats and their cost when located I find what looks like a viable alternative. I just received a Cabela's Master Spring Catalog. There is a five page section on boat seats, ranging from simple upholstered fold-ups to form-fitted wrap around designs and even some with arm rests. Virtually all are priced at less than $100 and the ones that appear most adaptable to our use are less than $60. It is worth a look. (pages 182-187 of the catalog) Following pages also have adjustable slide brackets that might be adaptable. Bruce A. Frank +++ #9017 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: Bearhawk Seats Better still, you can check it out on-line at: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jhtml?id=cat21334&navAction=push&navCount=4&parentId=cat21282&parentType=subcategory These would also work well in a Christavia. I wonder what they weigh? Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #9026 From: "gjvf" Subject: Re: Bearhawk Seats What about these seats; http://www.kirkeyracing.com/home.html They seam well constructed and cheap but don't seem to be adjustable. Jim Van Fossen #411 Grafton, OH +++ #9142 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: More on seats I called Cabella's to get the weight of thier fold-down boat seats that were discussed last week. The first of the two seats I looked at was a proper boat seat with a removable headrest for about $90 USD and came in at 16 lbs shipping weight. The other is an "angler" seat and is a little more spartan and has a shipping weight of 9.5 lbs. I really like the look of the first seat but would probably dump the headrests. It also has a shallower seat making allowing it the fit a little better. I have a limited amout of space to play with between the seats (fore and aft) as I have to leave enough space for full deflection of the rear stick. How does this weight compare to other seats? As anyone weighed thier seats? Thanks, Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #9143 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: [Bearhawk] More on seats Temperfoam (Comforfoam) is heavier than other foams, but its other properties get my vote. After 8 months on a Comfor-foam office chair (oh so nice...once it warms up), I'll gladly trade a few pounds for a comfortable butt. Russ Erb +++ #9144 From: "Ron Webb" Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] More on seats I have seats from a late model compact car that weigh 22# each. This includes the reclining mechanism and the headrest (necessary for mile high club membership;^}. I had to have them narrowed to fit in my Pacer fuselage (just shaved 2" of foam off each side and re stitch the cover), but a in Bearhawk they should fit as is. Ron Webb +++ #9145 From: "t18cox" Subject: Re: More on seats > I called Cabella's to get the weight of thier fold-down boat > seats. After reading this thread I got my trusty bathroom scale and did some weighing. I have Cabela's seat #01-2682 in my boat. It weighed 9 1/2 pounds. Of course some method to mount it in the plane would have to be devised. The seat is very comfortable and after a year of salt water fishing on the Texas coast looks nearly new. A right front seat from a Tripacer (upholstered and ready to fly) weighed 14 1/2 pounds. I will use Tri Pacer type seats in front with some individually removable rear seats unless I get convinced otherwise in the next few months. Bill Cox #303 >>> 4sep02 #9154-11297 +++ #10446 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Cutting Temperfoam A question for any of you who have used Temperfoam--what is the best way to cut the stuff to shape? I have visions of trying to cut an angel food cake, where it just smooshes out of the way and doesn't cut, or if it does cut, it doesn't cut where you want it to. +++ #10447 From: Brian Cox Subject: RE: Cutting Temperfoam I read an article that suggested using an electric carving knife - I guess like the ones made to carve the Thanksgiving turkey. Best to say Grace beforehand. +++ #10448 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Cutting Temperfoam I've cut tons of the stuff and I use an electric carving knife. The foam cuts just like high quality beef...or so I'm told because we usually have the cheap stuff. +++ #10450 From: "Marvin Haught" Subject: Re: Cutting Temperfoam Seems like I read an article in Sport Aviation a few years ago about freezing the stuff first, and then cutting it with the electric knife. Might be worth a try! Saying grace might not be a bad idea too! +++ #10451 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Cutting Temperfoam Electric carving knife to cut then freeze it and use a sanding disk to shape such as rounding the corners. +++ #10457 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: Re: Cutting Temperfoam When I am making seat foundations from Confor Foam I use large shears or an electric two blade reciprocating knife. If you don't want to spend around $200 for an upholstery knife, you can use your wife's electric knife or buy one at KMart for $15 - $20. Hint. If you are making rolls, place the shaped foam between the layers of the foam for a smoother finish. By the way, Temperfoam is a trademark for this type of foam used for mattresses. +++ #10489 From: Jimmy Mathis Subject: Re: Cutting Temperfoam I have soaked foam rubber with water, then froze it and afterward drilled and shaped it for use in my honey business. Just a thought. +++ #10500 From: Joel Mayhall Subject: CONFOR Foam A note of caution for those of you using CONFOR (Temperfoam)foam. This foam can crack or break if tightly bent or rolled up especially at lower temperatures. One of my suppliers will only ship it to me packed flat on a pallet or box for this reason. The stiffer foam is is the most suseptable to breaking. It cost me a couple of hundred dollars to learn not to store it rolled up. All the FAA fire resistant certified foam that I use is under the CONFOR trademark. If any of you have any questions or problems on your interior upholstery, I'll be glad to help if I can. +++ #10737 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: More possibly useful trivia from Erbman I've been going through the old messages, putting them on the next version of the Bearhawk CD, and came across a discussion of seat construction. One of the statements made (by me, oddly enough) was that rumor had it that Temperfoam (or Confor Foam if you prefer) was heavy. Well, I just went out and weighed some sample pieces. All of these pieces were 16"x18"x1", the standard size that Wicks sells them in. Two were pink (soft), two were blue (medium), and one was green (hard). The average weight of each piece was 1lb 0.7 oz, with no correlation between density (color) and weight. I'm using a pink/blue/green stack for the seat cushion and a pink/blue stack for the back cushion, so that's 5 lbs 3.5 oz of foam per seat. The foam sits on an aluminum sheet held by a square steel tube frame of my own design. I don't think that weight is objectionable, considering the comfort available for those 4 to 5 hour flights. After I get the upholstery (fabric) sewn, I'll post a weight of the whole seat (assuming I remember). +++ #10738 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Your comments on Temper foam got me thinking about my own experiences and something to be considered. I spend 2.5 hours a day sitting on the stuff. For 32 years i've been sitting in the same airplane doing the same thing (...and I'll keep at it until I get it right) and for a lot of that time the cushions nearly crippled me. About six years ago I decided to design my own seat cushions. I got temper foam and set it on a rigid foam base believing what they told me about three inches of the foam being plenty over a flat surface. I think they are wrong. My experience doesn't support their claims. I found hot spots would develop right under my butt bones where they compressed the foam more than other places. Progressively, I made the following changes until I got a totally fatigue-free cushion. -hollowed out rigid foam right under butt bones to give a place for them to go while foam supports my butt -extended forward edge of cushion six inches up under legs and cut clearance "C" for the stick. -Cut 4" wide wedges that taper from 1" on outside of seat to zero at edge of 4" strip that runs along both sides of seat fore and aft. The result is that my legs and thighs are well supported and my butt bones don't feel the cushion. This "3 inches of temper foam works over sheets of plywood, etc." pitch doesn't work for me. Incidentally, for planning purposes. 3" of temper foam compresses to exactly 1.5 inches. +++ #10739 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Good points--I'll remember the part about cutting wells for my butt bones shouldst that become a problem. I've only got about 4 inches from the edge of the seat to my knees as it is. I also plan to add the wedges you mention. It will be interesting to cut them as the foam is rather floppy at room temperature, even more floppy at current workshop temperatures. Sound like in the end (sic) after your modifications, you're much happier with your Temperfoam seats than your previous seat cushions. +++ #10740 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Don't cut the wedges out of the temper foam. Cut it out of rigid foam and glue them to your seat pan so they force the temperfoam to conform up and around your butt. +++ #10741 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Friend of mine is a big believer in high density carpet foam. I flew with him in his Defiant to OSH from the Philly area, before he'd really upholstered, on one inch of HD carpet foam. I was very comfortable. I plan to use Tempur(Sun) foam in my seats, my friend calls HD carpet foam the "poor mans" astronaut foam. +++ #10742 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Hmmm...very different than what I thought you meant. Could you be more specific on what type of foam to use? I'm not real smart on foam types. Does it have to be foam, or is that just the lightest/cheapest material? Should I put a layer of fiberglass around the foam so that it doesn't get torn up in use? Should I put the same wedges on seat back also? There I go with all the questions, but I want your butt to be happy when you're flying in #164--after all, the rest of you will be, so why shouldn't all of you be? +++ #10744 From: Del Rawlins del@r... Subject: Re: Re: Seat cushions. Going the other direction, the seat in "Boog's" super cub has been replaced by a piece of formed sheet aluminum that fits flush with the baggage area floor. He has a seat cushion made with about an inch of foam that he throws in there when he is flying hunters around. 8^) Every pound of weight saved is another pound of their gear he can haul, ya know? He has a better set of seat cushions that he installs when flying with someone he actually likes. +++ #10747 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience The only reason not to make the wedges out of pine is that your seat pan is going to flex a little so foam works better. Almost any kind of rigid foam works because it is protected by the temperfoam. I used the blue insulating foam from home depot and I have over 1000 hours and four plus years on it. If you don't think your seat pan is going to flex, use some straight grain pine (no knots...knots in the butt are a pain in the....you know the rest). +++ #10748 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Thanx, budd. To ask again--do I need these wedges on the back of the seat or just the bottom? +++ #10750 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Sorry, forgot...I have two sets of back cushions one with and one without the wedges originally for use with and without parachutes. I can't tell too much difference between them but I can say this: one uses several layers of different density foam and I should have used only the softest available because you don't put much pressure on the back. I also used the construction of the back cushions to change the back angle of the seat by cutting them in a taper, three inches thick at the bottom and one inch thick at the top. To answer the original question, yes I'd put wedges on the back too and I'd use only the softest foam. +++ #10752 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Thanx again, budd. In keeping with our tendency to look at alternative methods, I've come up with a way to use sheet aluminum to form the wedges. Without going into a lot of detail, in this case it should work better for attachment and access to attachment screws. I tried stuffing "stuff" under the foam to simulate the wedges and could tell the difference in the feel of the seat. Based on your recommendation, I'll take the blue foam layer out of the seat back, leaving just the 1" of pink foam. On the plus side, that will give me a little more support under the thighs since I'll be sitting 1" farther back. On the slightly minus side, I'll need to move the rudder pedals 1" closer to the seat to maintain the same relative positions. Not really a problem since I haven't put in the final mounts for the rudder pedals yet. At least I'm making all of these changes on just one seat--there's a reason I haven't made the second seat yet. +++ #10753 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience I don't think I'd go with just the 1" on the back. I'd glue up two layers of 1" and taper it from 2 at the bottom to 1 at the top (freeze it and belt sand it). that'll put your butt forward for the rudders and give a little more lean back angle. I'd also look at carving a lumbar support out of a piece of 1" by about 6" wide that runs across the seat in the lumbar area. Just round the top and bottom of it a little so there's no abrupt edges. I use a pad like that because I have a couple of trashed lower vertebrae, but students who have used it all say it makes a big difference even on a good back. [ Drawing included with post #10735 -- BJH ] +++ #10757 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience Okay, I'll go back to 2 inches, but I've already optimized the seat back angle so I'll skip the taper. More details after it happens. budd, you might want to get off the computer and go pack! See you "up North" in a few days. +++ #10757 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience I don't do the packing. That's Marlene's bailiwick. She just tells me we're ready, reaches over my shoulder to shut down the computer and points me at the door. I depend on her to keep me on track, on schedule and on the ball. See ya there. It's too bad Temperfoam doesn't come in 1/2" increments because 2" is too much, 1" isn't enough unless you contour the seat back. We can noodle on that a bit a Oshkosh because I've given it a bunch of thought and wasted more than a little foam working it out. The ideal thing would be an injected foam back pan that you custom mold to your own seating position then put an inch of foam over that. Look up Oregon Aero's booth at OSH and see how they do it. +++ #10767 From: "drennie540" Subject: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience > The ideal thing would be an injected foam back pan that you custom > mold I was thinking you could put a plastic bag under and behind a person , then spray , spray foam. This should give a mold of your butt and back. +++ #10769 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Re: Erbman cushions and my experience That's what I had in mind, but it might be too person-specific. +++ #10794 From: "kgward2000" Subject: suspension seats Anybody looking at seats may want to check out www.racecraftseats.com look at the slimline version. I think they might fit and they seem to be priced okay.I have used the racing version for offroad racing for years and they are extreemly comfortable for long rough rides, mind you they may not be practical because bearhawks don't ride rough. ken +++ #10796 From: "Tim Anderson" Subject: Re: suspension seats race seats are also listed in Jegs.com..several versions and widths, with harnesses and pre-made cushions. +++ #11016 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Front Seat Weight Well, I've finally finished the pilot's seat well enough that I'm ready to publish a weight figure for it. The total weight (frame, Temperfoam cushions, and adjustment rails, but no upholstery fabric (yet)) is ........ 16 pounds Of that, about 5 lbs is the Temperfoam cushions, and I seem to remember the adjustment rails were about 2 lbs each (4 lbs total), which leaves 7 lbs for the frame of 3/4 sq x .035 steel tube and .025 aluminum sheet. Not bad for a seat I designed and built myself instead of scrounging grungy old seats out of a wrecked Tri-pacer (assuming I even knew where to look), that would have to then be cleaned up, modified, and re-upholstered. While at OSH, I adjusted the seat in Proto II back and forth while checking the dimensions to the stick, pedals, and panel. While I'm sure The Bob can do it without thinking about it, I had to wiggle the seat, fiddle with it, and overall it seemed more trouble than it should be (but I bet knowing the Bob it's a few pounds lighter than mine). Yes, I might be able to learn to do it too, but what about that passenger flying in your airplane for the first time--how much trouble will they have? It was almost as bad as trying to adjust a traditional Cessna seat. My adjustment rails were removed from under the front seats of a couple of dead Ford Tauruses (Tauri?) of about 1986 vintage at the local junkyard. The guy just could not understand why I wanted the rails but not the seats. These were stripped of many of the heavy steel fittings down to the bare minimum required to make the rails work, with a few "new" parts created to hold the adjusting mechanism. If I were doing production, I would just copy the design in all new parts, adjusting to reduce weight where possible. Modifying is such a pain. Why Taurus rails? I've driven a 1986 Ford Taurus since it was new and one of the things that impressed me from day one and still today was how easily and positively the front seats adjusted. I may have found other cars just as good, but none better, and quite a few worse. Raise the lever, slide your butt to where you want it, release the lever, relax and the catches pop right in every time. Also I have six contact points to push against (instead of the one pin in The Bob's design) when I really have to start mashing that rudder in or stomp on the brakes. Probably gross overkill, but I like it better anyway. Someone pointed out that my seat will move back and forth strictly in translation. The Bob's design pitches up some as you slide it forward. Both move along the tubes pitched up 18? from horizontal. Nothing unairworthy about the Bob's design. This is just how I decided I would like to do mine. My butt really likes the Temperfoam, and it's made even better after incorporating budd's suggestion for wedges along the sides. +++ #11017 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: Front Seat Weight Bob's seats are not representative of the way the system works. One of the interesting asides from down south is that if we don't use pins or clamps to hold the seats in position during production gravity slides them to the back. >>> 20may03 #11298-18250 +++ #11466 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Erbman Seat Design Passes Pancho Barnes Test Just thought y'all would like to know. Friday night my seat design, complete with budd inspired wedges and Temperfoam cushions, passed the "Pancho Barnes" test. I set the seat at the proper angle in front of the TV and plopped my size (??) butt down in it. Two hours and 15 minutes later, after watching part of "Russian Roulette" and Episodes 5 and 6 of "From The Earth To The Moon", I still had a "Happy Bottom." At least it wasn't any more upset than it normally is after sitting in any other chair for 2+15. The wedges really do make a difference by redistributing the pressure onto your gluteus maximi and away from your tail bones. Russ "So how can I get paid for just sitting around?" Erb (For Planter Bob and anyone else who has no idea what Erbman is talking about, it would help if you knew that in the 1940s one of the various names that Pancho Barnes' establishment outside of Muroc Army Air Field/Edwards Air Force Base was called was the "Happy Bottom Riding Club". You can form your own theory on the origin of this name, but the official story is that one day Jimmy Doolittle came back from riding a horse and commented that it "gave me a happy bottom.") +++ #11625 From: Budd Davisson Subject: BH bunks In doing the article on the new Storch variant from Slepkev in Australia (the Moose: makes you wonder if they monitor their competition), which uses the M-14P, I noted that their front seat backs fold forward to allow more room for camping. The thought occurred that it would be easy to rig a full length, upper level cot/litter affair in a BH that bridges the front seats runs the full length of the cabin so a couple of people (very friendly people) could stretch out. I'm picturing something like the traditional folding army litter. All this would require is hinging the seat backs to fold forward and maybe a removable back cushion that could couple as pillows. this would allow upper level bunks to bridge all the rest of the gear still stowed on the floor. could also configure the airplane as a tandem with two left seats and bunks stacked in the right half of the cabin. Comments? bd +++ #11627 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: BH bunks > The thought occurred that it would be easy to rig a full length, > upper level cot/litter affair in a BH that bridges the front seats > runs the full length of the cabin so a couple of people (very > friendly people) could stretch out. I'm picturing something like the > traditional folding army litter. I've also thought about the same thing. If you were camping with your plane on soggy ground, it would allow you to sleep in the plane AND keep your gear in the plane and off of the ground. All you would need are some small rings welded to the fuselage tubes at the desired height that a custom made hammock could be attached to. If the hammock were sized just right, all it would take is a series of small hooks around the perimeter that would go into the fuselage rings, and no adjusting mechanism would be required. It would be important to make the rings unobtrusive so that you aren't banging into them all the time during normal operations. When the Alaska Builders got together last winter, after we left Rod's place we stopped to drop off Dan's friend (sorry, can't remember his name) and looked at his PA-12 project. He had incorporated an extended baggage area into the rear fuselage that was basically a metal box about halfway up the rear bulkhead where sleeping bags and other light objects could be placed. It would also provide extra footroom for the hammock/cot setup. -- Del Rawlins +++ #11630 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: BH bunks I don't know if it will make it to Copper State next month, but take a look at how Karl (Bud) Davidson's 2+2 Sportsman is configured to allow two to camp inside it. Karl created a shelf in the aft section of the fuselage underneath the formers that created the upper part of the shape of the aft fuselage, between the cabin and the tail. This is a sleeping deck. The rear seat, if I remember correctly, is removable to open the floor from front seats to the aft wall of the luggage compartment providing another sleeping bay with plenty of room for one person. In my own V-6 STOL the rear seat is removable and foldable to clear the floor from front seat to aft luggage bay bulkhead allowing for, as you said, two very friendly people to sleep there. All accomplishable without opening a door in bad, very cold or windy/rainy weather. Bruce A. Frank +++ #11654 From: Jim Ash Subject: BH bunks A few years back, I bought a yard hammock for my wife, with the intention of hanging it between a couple trees. The trees didn't work out, so I made a stand out of 1x3 oak. The 'backbone' was doubled-up 1x3. When one person got in it (disclaimer - she ain't that big), the forces pulled the ends together so much the backbone bent to the point the feet on the ends came up. I didn't do the statics, but the horizontal forces are amazing. I ended up sistering the backbone with a piece of 2"x3/8" steel bar for the length of it. It still bows some, but now the feet stay on the ground. If you're going to put hammock hooks on the fuselage, please put them close to a member that would be under compression from the hammock forces. If you put those hooks halfway down some of those fuselage tubes, you could probably cut them out and use them for your tail feather bows. Jim Ash +++ #11659 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: BH bunks An excellent point, Jim. Any load applied to a truss structure should be applied at a cluster or as close as possible to one. Russ Erb +++ #11660 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: BH bunks If you look at the loading, supporting the weight with your fixture would be difficult, but a piece of steel pipe could have done the job easily. You underestimate the rigidity of the 4130 tubes. There may be some measurable deflection, but it is fully elastic. If the hanging cot has rigid poles (even aluminum ones) through sleeves on both sides and those are used as the attach point to the vertical fuselage members , the load sharing will reduce individual tube stress well below any permanent deformation stress. I built a camping trailer with exactly this type of suspended cot. The superstructure was 1/2" electrical conduit, much softer than 4130. With years of supporting over 300 lbs, with 5 vertical tubes on each side of the structure, no bow ever developed. Even if as few as 4 tubes carried the majority of the load, damage is unlikely. Bruce A. Frank +++ #11661 From: Budd Davisson Subject: Re: BH bunks I agree with Russ that we should always try to make our loads concentric and through the same point, but the truth is that if the weight of a human body or two can deflect any piece of tubing in a fuselage enough to permanently deform it, be glad that it does because it'll point out where someone has substituted copper tubing for 4130. You could hang many hundreds of pounds from the middle of a 24" piece of 3/4 x 035 tubing without doing permanent damage. I routinely hang engines from the middle of a piece of .049 x 1" that bridges two rafters in my shop (2 feet). My only concession to the load is that I have a 2" wide saddle going over the tubing to spread the load and hang the hoist from that. No deflection so far. Load-to-a-cluster for flying, load it where you want to for sleeping (unless you do a lot of 4G jumps in your sleep). bd +++ #12226 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Seats This was posted to the BD-4 group, but I thought some here might find the information useful. Bruce A. Frank > After my last long trip, I vowed that I would never ever sit in that > #@$ %!*& bench seat (per plans) again. So I picked up a couple of > Suzuki Samuri seats from a junkyard for $50/ea. They are in good > shape, but it took a day of calling around to find them. I also > wandered around a couple of "pick-a-part" places and measured seats > from dozens of car/suv/truck models. The Samuri's are the only ones > I could find that met the target 18" or so width. > > It took a couple of days of headscratching and fabricating to get > the seat rails installed. The seats fit the BD-4 perfectly, with > the right overall size and proportions. My butt is saved, and my > passengers will enjoy the ability to independently adjust their seat > and headrest, and lean back and relax. > > Run, don't walk, to your local boneyard and get these now, if you > are ever going to do it. Samuri's are a dead breed and they are > being marched to the crusher. The jeep/4x4 yard I bought the seats > from had only 4 Samuri's, and they will be history in just a few > days. +++ #11377 From: "Tim Anderson" Subject: Re: Fwd: samurai seats- N33AW Jegs.com has racing seats, custions and harnesses for what seems to be a good price. The have alum. and composite. One would have to figure out the mounting slides though. One draw back is they don't fold forward allowing rear seat access. But the cargo door would solve that. Tim Anderson +++ #12383 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: RE: Fwd: samurai seats- N33AW >> I posted some info earlier about the Sazuki Samurai seats > What's the weight on those again? About 20 pounds each. +++ #12384 From: Bob Romanko Subject: RE: Fwd: samurai seats- N33AW Hmmmm....that's only 4 lbs (each) heavier than Erbman's butt molded seats. Are those guys making customer butt molded cushions and doing much for fire retardation? I wonder if those headrests would knock off my headset while I throw back my head whenscreaming just before I flare? Some of my landings are kind of spiritual, and I like low-back seats for that reason. ANR headsets are good if you scream a lot during landing. Planter Bob +++ #12402 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Fwd: samurai seats- N33AW Let's make sure we're comparing apples with apples. The 16 lb weight I quoted includes the adjustment rails, i.e. everything needed to bolt it directly to the frame. I wouldn't be surprised if the 20 lbs is just the seat without any sort of adjusting mechanism, but I could be wrong. Can anyone clarify? Russ Erb +++ #12409 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Fwd: Samurai Seats - N9286 The weight of those Samurai seas is 22 Lbs with the tracks. The mounting tracks from the drivers side apparently should be used for both seats because of a different shape of the floor on the passenger side. I have included another post with pictures of a slightly different model year seat. While reading the previous posts it seems the Sazuki Samurai (Sazuki Serria in other countries) 4X4 is a discontinued vehicle so if these interest anyone look for them now. One guy bought the seats for cheap then spent $1000 with leather and Contour (sp?) foam (Sunfoam, Tempur foam) Bruce A. Frank +++ #14399 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Seats This was posted to the BD4 group. Thought the information might be useful to Bearhawk builders. International Suzuki Association - Accent Buckets Bruce A. Frank +++ #15813 From: Ken Beanlands Subject: Re: Tri-Pacer Seats Available > I came across someone parting out a Tri-pacer, including a new > Airtex interior, and seats. Found his ad on shortwing.org. > > He wants $700.00 for the seats and interior (prefers to sell > together). As a price point, I bought a pair of Tomahawk seats from an aircraft salvage dealer for $125 for the pair. They are in good condition. They are rather neat as there is absolutely no structure below the seat pan allowing you to build whatever "stand" you wish to make them fit your plane. Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace) +++ #17365 From: Del Rawlins Subject: seat frame plans Has anybody else bought the seat frame plans from Kevin DeShazer (the guy who drew the Bob-Wheel plans)? Am I just an idiot or is the seat adjusting mechanism not clearly depicted on the drawing? -- Del Rawlins +++ #17366 From: "rodsmith52" Subject: Re: seat frame plans I had the same problem Del. I had to call and still didn't get much information. Apparently Bob gave him a Tri-pacer seat and he made plans off of it. I think the adjusting mechanism came from a drawing from Bob but he hadn't seen the parts. He said to contact Bob for more information on that. I decided to copy Bill Johnson's adjusting mechanism and not worry about it. Rod Smith +++ #17369 From: Pat Fagan Subject: Re: seat frame plans > Am I just an idiot or is the seat adjusting mechanism not clearly > depicted on the drawing? I don't know what those plans show. I drew up the parts for the adjuster mechanism that I based off what Bob designed. I think I sent the drawing to Mike long ago, but don't remember if he ever put it in Beartracks. If you want, I can scan it and post it to the group. Russ, you were partially right. During my Salt Lake oddysey I started experiencing the "Cessna slideback". It got to be real annoying as I didn't even have to be pushing on the rudder peddles, the seat would just unlatch on its own. The problem was I had been too pretty with my parts, putting a nice round crown on the tip of the adjusting pin. Back at home I added more metal to make the pin longer and also left it squared off on the end. Now it stays latched yet still operates easily. Pat Fagan +++ #17371 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: seat frame plans Thanks for the quick answer. I don't have a real problem with designing a seat adjust mechanism, but I'm kind of annoyed that the plans are vague in that area. I wish that the adjustment mechanism had been left off completely because the way it is drawn is just confusing. -- Del Rawlins +++ #17375 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: seat frame plans Good! It was the crown that concerned me, since the crown part would not hold. Russ Erb +++ #17384 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: seat frame plans >>I'm interested in the seat plans info. The plans for the tripacer type seat frames are available for $20 from Kevin DeShazer. Like I said, the drawings of the frames themselves are fine, but the adjustment mechanism is incomplete and confusingly drawn. http://pws.prserv.net/deshazer/ I think that since it will probably be necessary to hunt down a set of original seats to copy the adjustment mechanism, it may be better the save the twenty bucks and copy the frames at the same time. -- Del Rawlins +++ #17386 From: Pat Fagan Subject: Re: seat frame plans You'll have to hunt down an actual tripacer if you hope to see the mechanism. I bought a pair of tripacer seats from a junkyard and that's all I got was the seats. I had to pour over Bob's protos to figure out the adjusting mechanism. I haven't seen the seat plans, but if they are good, they would probably be a smart purchase. The junkyard seats were pretty pricey and they required quite a bit of modification to make them fit. Pat Fagan +++ #17389 From: 321Tim Subject: Re: seat frame plans Just a note/reminder that I uploaded the drawings of the Cessna 150 seat/auxiliary seat from the Cessna C-150 Service manual to our files area. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bearhawk/files/ 321Tim +++ #17390 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: seat frame plans > I haven't seen the seat plans, but if they are good, they would > probably be a smart purchase. The junkyard seats were pretty pricey > and they required quite a bit of modification to make them fit. That was kind of my thought as well, if the alternative is starting with a pair of skody old worn out seats that will probably need repair, blasting, painting and recovering anyway, along with the fabrication of the mounting/adjusting hardware, building the frames with new metal doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Looking over the plans, I'm probably going to build the frames per plans except for I'm considering omission of the springs on the bottom frames, and instead making a pair of removable buckets with plywood frames like the MGA has, with some sort of metal mesh bucket in the middle. Maybe with temperfoam for at least the left seat, and probably the right seat so I don't have to listen to whining about wanting to land and stretch. -- Del Rawlins +++ $Id: 2.4.1-Interior-Seats,v 1.10 2003/05/22 03:30:19 bentonh Exp $