+++ #3619 From: Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Re: 023 Update & Budd's Bearhawk Fittings Likewise, Russ and I had been talking about friction in the trim system and how to achieve it. I asked Bob what he did and he went on awhile about how you could make a rub block for the trim wheel. Eventually, he told me what he had done. He also thought Russ would freak if he heard his solution. Rather than keeping the trim cables apart on the run back to the tail, he twisted them around each other for two or three twists. He said there is so little movement in the trim system that he wasn't concerned with the cables cutting each other, and you can adjust the friction by adding or subtracting a twist to your satisfaction. Just some ideas from the master. +++ #3620 From: Russ Erb Subject: Re: [Bearhawk] Re: 023 Update & Budd's Bearhawk Fittings Excuse me for a minute while I freak out... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH! Okay, I feel better now... Actually it doesn't seem that unreasonable. Trim systems are supposed to have friction. Why is it easy to come up with hard ways to do things, but hard to come up with easy ways to do things? From earlier discussions with Mike, I would be concerned with how little movement there is in the trim system. I remember Mike telling me that the edge of the trim wheel moves about an inch through the flight. It seems like that would be too sensitive for my tastes. A Glasair builder I know has a trim wheel that has a worm gear reduction that greatly slows down the trim cable movement for wheel movement. +++ #3621 From: Russ Erb Subject: [Bearhawk] Lotsa Questions > 2. I am assuming that the aileron cable that runs from the > belcrank to the fuselage along the rear spar goes to the aileron > belcrank on the opposite wing. Is this correct? Yep. +++ #3897 From: William & Delinda Johnson Subject: 023 Update & Stuff I made my cables for the rudder this weekend. Given the +- 30 degree rudder stops, I found the rudder pedal travel to be excessive. In order to not hit the firewall, the rudder pedal had to be adjusted to within 30 degrees of the floor - not a good situation. So, what does one do to fix this problem. I lengthened the rudder pedal cable arms by about 1 inch. That made the pedal travel normal (well, perhaps normal needs to be determined by each of you) and should increase the breakout force needed for rudder deflection. Budd commented that the force was very light so that may be a side benefit. I did not discuss this change with Bob so proceed at your own risk. +++ #3919 From: Steve Eldredge Subject: 031 update and question A question came up as I started bending some of the parts: With regard to the elevator belcrank, there is an inside angle that is part of the long edge bend in the flange. I am wondering if anyone attempted to make the bend, or do you just cut a notch and then bend the two flanges separatly and re-weld? +++ #3923 From: Pat Fagan Subject: Re: 031 update and question Notch it, bend it and reweld the elevator bell crank. +++ #3924 From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: 031 update and question I cut it, made the bends and welded the cut. >>> 4sep02 #9154-11297 +++ #10492 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Airplane Noises! Well, I finally did it. I finally let myself sit in the cockpit of #164 and make airplane noises. ... As is my custom, I noticed a few things while doing this: 1. The pitch cables and trim cables are pretty close to each other back at the tail. 2. If I had put the trim bellcrank (on the right side) and the trim horns (on the left side) on the same side, I could run the cables directly without interfering with the elevator cables. As it is, I'll need a couple more fairleads, but that really doesn't matter since the trim system does not need minimum friction. 3. There is a reason we use steel cable and not nylon cord as control cables. Boy, that nylon is stretchy! Too bad I don't have any dacron rope around--it hardly stretches. +++ #10575 From: "Lee H. Erb" Subject: Control Cable material > I need to order some control cable soon. The Spruce catalog offers me > a choice of galvanized or stainless. Is there a preference for which > to use? Stainless, definitely! +++ #10576 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: Control Cable material The question of all time. One would think that stainless would be the way to go, but there are some problems. Stainless cable, particularly over small diameter pulleys work hardens becoming stiffer and eventually brittle. As it work hardens it becomes more susceptible to corrosion. Admittedly this will likely not become a problem for hundreds of hours, but several A&P/AI 's have suggested to me that I use stainless in the relatively straight runs such as to the tail feathers (also because these cables are low in the fuselage and subject to moisture, dirt and salt in seaplane application) but to use galvanized in the wings. Both types of cables have to be well impregnated with grease. +++ #10579 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Cable Tension? I saw a cable tension meter today, which made me think about what tension I should adjust my various control cables to. Searching through the "always-helpful" AC 43-13 yields section 7-153, which states "Carefully adjust, control cable tension in accordance with the airframe manufacturer's recommendations." Gee, thanks, Mr. Fed. Well, since that told me nothing, I thought I'd ask you folks--what tension do you tighten your control cables to? +++ #10583 From: "scott anderson" Subject: Re: Control Cable material Stainless is harder to work with due to its stiffness. The life time of galvinized compared to stainless is something we dont have to worry over unless you plan on lots of salt water action. I've work on many an old plane that has galvanized cable that are running close to 40 to 50 yrs of age. I'm also sure you have compared the price between the 2 and found galvanized is less expensive. Like my dad use to say these dang old airplane werent designed to last a hundred yrs with out some maintenance. >>> 20may03 #11298-18250 +++ #11480 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Swagging tool I just passed this along to some of the V-6 STOL builders and thought the Bearhawk group might find this useful info. > Look what I just ran across at Home Depot. This bolt cutter style > tool (not a modified bolt cutter but a real swagging tool) was on > sale for $20. On the right in the picture is the bolt together unit > I bought years ago from Aircraft Spruce. I have just finished doing > about a dozen swages, half with the AS tool and half with the Home > Depot tool. All the swages miked within a couple of thousands of > each other. There was variance from both tools. One crimp would be > larger and the next crimp smaller than the other. Size of the > crimped area varied slightly from one crimp to the next with the > same tool. That variance overlapped from one tool to the other. The > paper label visible is from the Home Depot tool. I do not remember > what I paid for the AS tool, but my thought is that it was about the > same as the Home Depot tool. > > Bruce A. Frank +++ #11508 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Swaging tool Well, that is part of what the Bearhawk group is all about. I thought you were going to have another method of connecting cable that I haven't seen before. While on the topic of cable connections, the standard method of incorporating adjustment is to use brass barreled turnbuckles. Is there any outstanding reason for not making my own with aluminum bodies (with steel nuts imbedded) and eye bolts with the eye loop welded? Bruce A. Frank +++ #11509 From: "Lee H. Erb" Subject: Swaging tool > Is there any outstanding reason for not making my own with aluminum > bodies (with steel nuts imbedded) and eye bolts with the eye loop > welded? Bruce, you know I am opinionated. I don't like aluminum in an oscillatory load (fatigue) situation. I assume you are talking of using them in a control system. There is also the potential for corrosion hidden between the nut and body. I had always assumed they used a brass alloy in the bodies for its corrosion resistance and when corrosion did occur, it was very noticeable. Probably the eye loop welded would be okay, but I don't like welds in tension or in a control system. Lee My practical for my "A" was replacing rudder cables in an AT-50 "Bambo Bomber" I can't remember if we had the crimpinag tool or used a big pair of pliers. That was 49 years ago. (In class we had to do couple of hand splices around thimbles.) +++ #11511 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: turnbuckles Yes they would be used in a control system, but I am not sure there would be enough load to flex the material. I'll think about it. Another thing, I have several small forged steel turnbuckles, galvanized, that are roughly the same size and weight as the salvaged Piper turnbuckles. My thing here is that I do not have enough turnbuckles for my system and desire additional ones. Used brass ones I have inspected at fly markets do not instill confidence and even used the prices are high. These forged steel ones are load rated and cost only $3 each. They are a design with lock nuts and I would wrap safety wire them just like the smooth barrel AN units. Comments? Bruce A. Frank +++ #11512 From: "Lee H. Erb" Subject: turnbuckles > Used brass ones I have inspected at fly markets do not instill > confidence and even used the prices are high. These forged steel > ones are load rated and cost only $3 each. I have seen some that would not instill confidence to me and they were on a local airplane. The forged steel should be fine if they look good.. +++ #11513 From: "Lee H. Erb" Subject: turnbuckles > These forged steel ones are load rated and cost only $3 each. I forgot to ask if they were commercial hardware with flashing at the parting line. Lee +++ #11514 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: RE: Swaging tool > My practical for my "A" was replacing rudder cables in an AT-50 > "Bambo Bomber"... Do you still have info on how to do the splices? I've looked, but can't find anything on making eye splices in 7 strand cable. All I can find is how to do it in 3 strand rope. This seems like another mostly forgotten skill that would be neat to know. Russ Erb +++ #11515 From: Tony Dean Subject: Re: Swaging tool I have an old copy of AC 43.13 1A circa 1972 that has an example of a "hand splice" and description in chapter 4. It may take a couple of tries to get it to work without someone to actually show you the technique though. Regards Tony Dean +++ #11517 From: "geraldmorrissey" Subject: Hand Splicing If you are an EAA member, search on their home page for back articles on an explination of this process. Its been many years ago but Sport Aviation ran a piece on this very subject. Also it may be in the old CAM 18. Prepare to suffer many a bloody finger. No way you can do it with gloves. Its a very elegant looking installation. Gerry +++ #11520 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Woven Cable Splice The latest issue of Custom Planes (November) has a very good article with many pictures using colored strands to show the splice process, Cable Splicing The Old-Fashioned Way by Steve Whitson. Bruce A. Frank +++ #11529 From: Russ and Penny Erb Subject: Cable Splicing If budd can reply to his own posts, then I can reply to mine. Based on something one of you said, I checked my "old" copy of AC43.13 (1988) and right there on page 104 are instructions for doing a cable eye splice. It has been dropped from the current (1998) version of AC43.13. It's a shame that such a splice only develops 75% of the strength of the cable, while Nicopress and swaging can develop the full strength of the cable. I think the splice looks much more impressive. I may do some just to have around, but the airplane is Nicopressed. Russ Erb +++ #11535 From: "Bruce A. Frank" Subject: Re: re: Swaging tool The only sleeves I have seen at Home Depot are aluminum ones which are not what you want to us in an aircraft application. The AN type are copper, usually plated with tin, but sometimes bare. I have had a supply of sleeves and stops for years that disappeared when I moved to CA. When I bought more I found that, at that time, McMaster-Carr was less expensive than AS&S. I also bought my stainless cable at McMaster. Glad you could cash in on what to me looks like a pretty decent deal on crimpers (compared to the one from AS&S) BTW, Benton, where are you located? Bruce A. Frank +++ #11538 From: Roger & Chachi Ritter Subject: Re: Cable eye splices One of the other responses mentioned back issues of EAA magazines - I've got a photocopy of a Vintage Airplane article from 10 May 1994 entitled "Cable Weaving" that has an explanation of how to do a 5-tuck Navy splice on 7x7 or 7x19 flexible cable. EAA can probably sell you a copy of that issue. The article also explains how to make a wrapped terminal. Roger +++ #11539 From: Del Rawlins Subject: Re: why dimples? > Has anyone besides me ever wondered why we are bothering to flush > rivet the entire wing on a 160 mph airplane? It certainly isn't for > speed. And AN3 roundheads are hardly noticeable. So..... Cause it's stronger? -- Del Rawlins +++ $Id: 2.2.5-Tail-Controls,v 1.5 2003/05/22 03:19:36 bentonh Exp $